Did the feminists burn their bras for nothing?

Staying at home is actually making a valuable contribution to society. You are parenting children - one of the hardest and most underrated jobs in the world.

In actual fact you are fulfilling many different careers:
Cleaner
Cook
Childminder
Teacher
Nurse

Unfortunately as kim147 rightly states, many of us now have to pay other people to take on the role of childminder whilst we find paid work but whilst still fulfilling the roles of cleaner, cook, teacher and nurse in our spare time. Not to mention mediator, counsellor, gardener, etc.

I think you'll find that even if you went out to work the criticism would still be there. You'd still get people asking if you don't miss your children, if you don't feel guilty for not being with them. They question the hours you work and why in fact you do work, when your children obviously need you at home.

As a woman, you cannot win. Pathetic rags like the Daily Mail only exacerbate this attitude and I'm sure that if you did a quick search you'd find plenty of contrasting articles which mock and deride both working women and those who choose to stay at home.

If you rely on the Daily Mail to make you feel better about your life then something has gone seriously wrong.

Being a 'housewife' isn't quite the same as being a SAHM though, is it? I think tgere are an awful lot of people (men and women) who would rather loll about at home doing a bit of gentle dusting followed by their hobbies and interests. I know I would rather read my way through the library and write poetry, than bash out words for the corporate beast.

But that's not being a SAHP, which is - as you rightly identify - a job in itself.

I also think in a recession the factors which drive people to work - self esteem, social recognition etc - probably become blurred by fear of losing work and work becomes more of a 'bad guy'. But I don't have any hard evidence for that.

As always on here, it's shoot the messenger if you dont agree with the message.

Or more accurately, shoot the DM because it's message is wrong.

I've nothing against the OP, despite how rude she was to me I've tried to debate the issue with her.

No RootinTootin it's a case of don't come onto Mumsnet quoting an article from the DM, asking people to click on the link helpfully provided (thus boosting their click rate), refusing to give information about the article when asked (because doing so would prevent people from clicking on the link), not wanting to make a point of any kind and then saying they don't want a heated debate.

I think we've all explained now where the OP went wrong, so she is welcome to return to state her point and perhaps start a proper, educated debate.

As always on here, it's shoot the messenger if you dont agree with the message.

When you look at what the survey actually asked it boils down to asking 1500 working women if they secretly wished they didn't have to go to work everyday.

If you asked that question to 1500 men I expect you'd get a broadly similar result!

Especially within the context of a fashion website survey- which people are going to assume is informal/a bit jokey.

If you sat the same 1500 people down and discussed the realities fully and then asked them if they still wished that, telling them that the answers would be recorded and used to indicate societies wishes. You might get a somewhat different result.

And even if you didn't. It suggests that slightly over half of all women would quite like not to work if given the opportunity. There's no shame in that. Feminism is about equality of opportunity the opportunity to not work should be equally available to both sexes.

You aren't expected to have a firm view- so much as A view, a starting point for discussion. Otherwise, why share it?

I'm struggling not to laugh/shout in frustration at the bit about 'destinys child singing about it enough'

That to me, is the problem with articles like this- reducing all women's thoughts, dreams and ambitions to the level of a 90s girl bands lyrics- or worse saying we don't live up to them is just so bloody demeaning.

Unacceptable sorry, wishful thinking on my part!

The DM is such a hateful newspaper that I would seriously question my friendship of anyone who admits to buying it. They take every opportunity to put women down and to objectify them, they are openly racist, narrow-minded, ring-wing facist loving scum.

I wouldn't even wipe my arse on their vile outpourings.

debssm, now you do realise though.

For one, you posted this on the feminist board so you wanted feminist opinions but you didn't want a heated debate? Why on earth start a debate at all then?

You were also quite openly encouraging posters to click on the link you gave. So not wanting to give the DM a bit of coverage then?

You refused to answer fairly simple questions on the validity of the study you talked about.

Yup, that indicates an open mind alright.

THERhubarb
Sweeping statement to say 'hated by all on Mumsnet' Unfortunately I'm quite sure that's not true but think you have clearly pointed out to OP why the debate started so badly.

Debssm welcome to MN where you can chat and ask questions and get different opinions which may or may not change what you were thinking in the first place when you asked the question or more simply put debate subjects

debssm, I'm afraid anything to do with the Daily Mail is a bit of a sore point. It's a racist, bigoted, sexist excuse for a newspaper and is generally hated by all on Mumsnet so linking to an article from the Daily Mail was never going to go down well.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that it does appear to be an attempt to gain more links for said article and generate a huge debate over it, much to the delight of the Daily Mail who have never hidden their hatred for Mumsnet.

They take pot shots at Mumsnet at every given chance. I won't click on your link because that does just give them one more click and I don't want to boost their ratings.

Can I suggest, if you truly wanted to debate the validity of an article by the DM, that you try a different parenting site?

No debate, wtf is the point then?

(or possibly you have dug yourself a hole you cannot get out of!)

Did you want us to read it and say 'oh yes, how right the DM are, feminism was pointless' ...laugh and get on with our day?

So what was the point of your OP?

What point were you trying to make?

What do you think of the article?

Nobody is saying you did write it - but we'd like to debate it with you, after all you asked the question in your thread title!

I wonder

Hmm. I wonder why that might be, Picture?!

debssm - as you're new to Mumsnet, you might like to know that many of us prefer not to read the Daily Mail, and as clicking through to their website means more money in their coffers, that is something that we don't want to do either.

However we are always up for a good debate (understatement ) and your OP sounds worthy of discussion.

How hard is it to provide the details we're asking for?

Nobody's asking you to do research!? I've done plenty of research into feminism and social attitudes as I'm sure have others on the thread. We were just asking you to extract a couple of 'facts' from your dubious article, a survey done by a fashion company and reported in the DM doesn't count as 'research' and that's why we won't give it oxygen by reading it.

We're quite happy to talk and debate with you, but you don't seem to want that?

feminists definitely burned their bras for nothing if the survey only asked women if they would rather be SAHP than work...

Maybe EVERYONE would rather be a SAHP than work....