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Original poster

HCPs also objectify female bodies

84 replies

BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 13:01

www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/time-to-end-pelvic-exams-done-without-consent/article4325965/

Some of you might have heard that medical students are brought in to practice pelvic exams on women who have been put under for a surgery without the woman's knowledge or consent.

How do you feel about this? I am personally horrified and absolutely disgusted. I know that our culture objectifies women and their bodies, but we rarely refer to doctors while talking about objectification. I think it's time we did.

Viewing a female body as something to "practice" a pelvic exam on without even seeking the lady's permission is the worst form of objectification. I do understand that medical students need to learn, and I am sure that many women would be happy to volunteer to help them out. But taking advantage of a vulnerable woman like that is just so unethical!

They are just looking at her as a vagina, uterus and set of ovaries they need to "learn" instead of a living breathing person with feelings, modesty and rights.

This IMO is just another aspect of the obstetric set up as it is which is aimed at disempowering women. It's shocking how little the rights of women are taken into account when it comes to things like childbirth and abortion, and this mindset is a part of that.

Would I be unreasonable to say this is comparable with date drug rape? I mean, rape is rarely about sex. It's usually about power and misogyny. Isn't this a way by which medical professionals are abusing their power by taking advantage of vulnerable women?

OP posts:
Original poster
BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 21:46

^ It is^ sexual assault. People throw rocks at me when I talk about medical rape or birth rape, but I think these terms are legitimate.

Especially since nowadays more and more people are admitting that rape is not about sex, it's about power and control.

OP posts:
HullMum · 12/05/2013 21:40

From a practical perspective (ignoring the huge ethical issue) if a person wakes up and something has gone wrong the doctor who performed the surgery wil have it come back on them.

I'm shocked the author needed his little brother to question the ethical side for his to realise it was an assault as well.

HullMum · 12/05/2013 21:36

This is vile and misogyny is "our culture" in every country unfortunately. How fucking disgusting, I am struggling to see how this does not count as sexual assault. Letting a stranger touch your vagina and cause you potentially unknown harm. Angry

I know so many people with horrible birth stories that nothing surprises me regarding the medical community and it's treatment of women anymore.

Original poster
BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 17:06

I do think they should stick to examining each other and the patients who choose to give them permission. Examining women who haven't consented or coercing women into agreeing to the examination is just unethical.

OP posts:
fishybits · 12/05/2013 16:49

I would love for my surgeon friend (now a consultant) to have been winding me up but I don't think he was. I dated a med student for about a year (18 years ago) and he said that they did examine each other. I think it was the anus and rectum of one of his classmates that he examined. Things may have changed with the students but my surgery was early 2008 so not that long ago.

I did give permission in 2007 for students to examine my uterus during surgery to remove cysts and endometriosis tissue. That was informed consent and they had my blessing. The more knowledge gleaned about endometriosis the better. But I did not give consent to have my vagina examined during the gallbladder removal, the subject wasn't even raised and why would it be.

Original poster
BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 15:37

fishybits

Oh my gosh :( That is just awful. I am so sorry to hear this!

I can't even imagine how rough they would have been to cause you to lose control of your bladder!! [shocked]

How is this NOT objectification? They are viewing women as an inanimate object. Honestly, if any doctors or students who do this sort of thing are reading this thread here's my message to them:

If this is not a big deal and you use the old "how will they learn" argument, then I have a suggestion. Why don't you people practice on each other? Why not nominate yourselves or your wives/daughters etc to be practice dummies for students?

OP posts:
RiotsNotDiets · 12/05/2013 15:20

That's vile fishy

you don't have to be pregnant to have your wishes ignored and your body violated then... just a woman.

fishybits · 12/05/2013 15:18

I went into have my gallbladder removed wearing knickers and in full control of my bladder. I came round not wearing knickers and temporarily couldn't control my urine. I got nowhere with the hospital, PALS. Stonewalled at every turn so I gave up looking for answers and just accepted that I'd never know what had happened.

Some years later I became friends with a surgeon and asked him what possible reasons during general surgery would there be for me to lose my knickers. Apparently I probably had any number or students examining my vagina whilst under GA Sad

I would never ever have consented to this. I am someone who is not in awe of the medical profession and who understands that it's my body whether it's surgery, pregnancy or giving birth. Nothing happens without my informed consent except apparently when under GA when any Tom, Dick or Harry can inspect the most intimate parts of my body AngryAngryAngry

RiotsNotDiets · 12/05/2013 15:15

Thanks for the link Tabbard

NiceTabard · 12/05/2013 15:13

"I think that in the medical culture in the UK, pregnant and labouring women are seen as nothing more than vessels."

YY well put.
Not by all HCPs obviously, but enough, and the general attitude seems to be that way.

Original poster
BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 15:11

Arseface

I am sorry about your experience.

I find it shocking that women need "permission" to deliver their twins naturally and those who choose to do so have "conditions" placed before them. It is your bloody choice to deliver however YOU want.

The same way, I find it shocking when women are denied epidurals and c-sections. It is every woman's right to make an informed choice about childbirth.

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RiotsNotDiets · 12/05/2013 15:08

scaevola my experience happened in a room full of trained medical staff. there were around six of them. Not one of them challenged the doctor or even attempted to comfort me during or after.

Their silence and inaction made them complicit in assaulting me and showed that they didn't see anything wrong with it.

I think that in the medical culture in the UK, pregnant and labouring women are seen as nothing more than vessels.

Original poster
BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 15:08

scaevola

Well, the system in UK is permitting it because it's happening. The Canadian system doesn't exactly say that this is acceptable but it still happens behind the scenes. I'm sure you realise that no system puts it down on paper that performing procedures without consent is OK. Hmm That disturbing fact is that it is still happening.

And I wasn't talking about the culture of nurses, I made it quite clear I was referring to the culture of misogyny and objectification which is all pervasive.

BTW means of redress are useless. The emotional and physical damage has been done and can't be undone. I'd rather work towards a system where this sort of thing didn't happen rather than spending hours talking about what the redressal should be if it does happen.

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NiceTabard · 12/05/2013 15:05

riots I am not surprised you find it hard to write that complaint.

Have people heard of the birth trauma association who are a charity to help people who have had horrendous experiences. If anyone wants to talk stuff through they might be useful Smile

Arseface · 12/05/2013 15:05

Riots, Primrose I had the same with my DTs. Justification was that midwife panicked about me haemorrhaging when she saw blood in the amniotic fluid. It was after the DTs were born and DH had stepped into the side room to take them from the pads so he wasn't there to stop her. There were loads of people in the room and none of them would meet my eye as I asked, demanded then begged her to stop. Obstetrician finally looked up from the floor and told her there was no need for any further intervention. Was left horribly bruised and pooing blood for weeks after.
I had agreed to being prepped for surgery and delivering in theatre as a condition of being allowed to try and deliver the twins naturally. Didn't want to have my feet in stirrups but got railroaded into it at the last minute. Will never let myself be that vulnerable again.

scaevola · 12/05/2013 15:03

I suggested seeking Canadian views because women there are in a system which says it's OK. They would have a different take on it.

Here in UK the system doesn't say it's OK and doesn't permit this, and there are means of redress even if they are slow to work through. And of course there are individuals who through incompetence (and I consider poor attitude a form of incompetence) give truly dreadful care.

The laughing MW is appalling.

And I have received suboptimal nursing 'care' with a sneery sarcastic remark thrown in for good measure. But I attribute this to one inadequate person, and not representative of nurses or their culture.

RiotsNotDiets · 12/05/2013 15:01

I think it's medical assault.

NiceTabard · 12/05/2013 15:00

What horrifying stories.

Is it possible to complain about this treatment, did you complain at the time?

I had a bloody awful midwife (nothing like your stories though) and I wouldn't have said anything so I know it is hard to pipe up, but these stories are so horrendous would it be possible to complain?

Is it not assault if a HCP does something like this? (genuine question)

RiotsNotDiets · 12/05/2013 14:58

What a cow primrose

Did you ever complain? I have started a letter a few times but each time it has reduced me to a gibbering wreck as I KNOW it won't come to anything and my obvious lack of power will make me feel worse. There was no mention of it in the notes so the hospital can easily deny it. Plus they have since become 'baby friendly' so would probably just say they've already improved their services.

Original poster
BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 14:50

Primrose

Sorry to hear about your first experience and I am glad the second one was better. :)

You are lucky you were allowed a c-section, this is a choice many women are battling for.

OP posts:
Primrose123 · 12/05/2013 14:47

Riots, a similar thing happened to me, except it was a midwife. She waited for my DH to leave the room to telephone our family, and said, "Right, I'm going to examine you now." She had been unable to do an internal exam, for some reason it had all suddenly become terribly painful, so she waited until DH wasn't there. If he had been there, her would have stopped her. It was the most painful thing ever. She then laughed at me when I started to cry.

Just like you, I felt cold and empty, and didn't bond with my DD for weeks. I felt very depressed for months, and feel as if that incident might have caused it.

When I had my second baby, I asked my consultant for a C-section, and had it. It was wonderful, and I recovered very quickly from it. It took months to recover from the birth of my first baby.

Original poster
BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 14:47

^^ People don't want to hear about it because they still feel women are incubators. As long as the baby is fine, the physical and emotional impact on a woman is irrelevant.

That is partly why doctors feel they can get away with this. They think they're doing us a favour by "giving" us a healthy baby (I am doubtful of how many times it is actually something they should get credit for), and we should be willing to put up with anything in return. I suppose allowing a student to examine you was your "payment" for the healthy baby. Angry

OP posts:
RiotsNotDiets · 12/05/2013 14:39

thanks swan

another interesting(?) aspect to it is that people do not want to hear about it in RL. I tried talking about it in baby groups and just got "oh well, forget about it, you should just be glad you have a healthy baby"

Original poster
BlackSwan7 · 12/05/2013 14:34

RiotsnotDiets

I am so sorry to hear about what you went through. It is appalling and horrifying. There aren't enough words to express how sorry and angry I am on your behalf.

OP posts:
RiotsNotDiets · 12/05/2013 14:33

oh, and I'm in the UK