The invisible men project

"What credentials does Jon Millward have for a scientific study?" He's a bloke and pro-prostitution. Come on Flora, get with the programme

50%! And that's ok is it? Fucking hell.

BTW it's easy to link iww - you just put 'and '' around the link.

lib I'm with When - your assertions are mere assumptions. What credentials does Jon Millward have for a scientific study? From what I can see he is a freelance pop-psych type writer without a scientific background. I did have a quick look at his blog post and it seemed highly subjective - full of "I think" and "I don't think".

Pro tip: sciencey-type papers are not written like that.

*inwino" I refuse to read non-evidence written by an author who herself says the paper is not representative of women in prostitution. If you can't do a better job of selling it, don't expect a better result.

You haven't done any better in selling these other papers. Who wrote these? Who paid for them? The survey sizes are not impressive and you haven't said anything to address the issues I raised in the other thread about the inherent problems in surveying prostitutes. I'm not surprised you've taken from those issues that I don't believe surveys because I don't believe people are telling the truth. I could barely expect less from you.

However even from your own statistics, you are crowing about the fact that only 50% of women in street prostitution had been raped. Are you fucking kidding?

Pro tip 1: It's PhD not pHD.
Pro tip 2: If you want to sound clever, learn how to cite properly.

So Floral you have been through this before? Well thanks for pointing out the thread- I see that you refuse to read evidence (your posts Sun Sun 03-Feb-13 04:42:22) where you rubbish and refuse to read the thesis of Suzanne Jenkins it because its a PhD thesis-and that the sample-which is clearly of those who conduct their business via the internet is not representative of all prostitutes-and you conclude (post Mon 04-Feb-13 03:11:06)
? The thing is, statistically, it's not possible to devise a meaningful representative study on harm or consent by asking prostitutes for a number of reasons.

• Those who are in forced situations will not be able to participate.
• Those who have left would be unlikely to participate or too difficult to find.
• The responses are largely subjective and therefore unverifiable.
• Dilbert always has something useful to add
• To paraphrase a famous prostitute: they would say that, wouldn't they.

If you want surveys in English you can look at a very large survey of 770 sexworkers in New Zealand (working on the streets, in brothels or as private workers) showed that in the past year over 90% had not experienced violence or rape (again violence and rape were more common in streetworkers)( Abel G et al 2007 The impact of the Prostitution Reform act on the health and safety Practices of Sex workers :Report to the Prostitution law review committee table 6.4 page 120)

In a relatively large study in Queensland Australia of 247 sex workers (102 in legal brothels, 103 independent escorts and 42 illegal street workers) it was found that found that 85% of sexworkers overall had never been raped by a client, of those that had been raped most were street workers where 50% had been raped (Seib C 2007 Health, well-being and sexual violence among Female sexworkers: a comparative study PHd thesis Queensland University of Technologyeprints.qut.edu.au/16398/1/Charlotte_Seib_Thesis.pdf )(p102 table 4.4) Appendix 4 of this thesis (p 216 ) present a summary table of eight other studies that examined prevalence of rape in sexworkers, again showing most indoor workers had never experienced rape while the frequency of rape in street workers was higher. Similarly for assault (?bashing?), again 85% overall had never been bashed by a client (p105 table 4.6) street workers had the highest prevalence of bashing where 50% reported ever having been bashed by a client (p106 table 4.7). And before you rubbish this as a pHD thesis much of the work has been presented in the peer reviewed literature ( see for instance Charlotte Seib , Michael P. Dunne , Jane Fischer & Jackob M. Najman (2012): Predicting the Job Satisfaction of Female Sex Workers in Queensland, Australia, International Journal of Sexual Health, 24:2, 99-111dx.doi.org/10.1080/19317611.2011.632073,) also see ?Selling sex in Queensland 2003? (available here www.pla.qld.gov.au/reportsPublications/sellingSex.htm)

Maybe not enough reading-the try Donovan, B., Harcourt, C., Egger, S., Schneider, K., O?Connor, J., Marshall, L., Chen, M.Y., & Fairley, C.K. (2010). The Sex Industry in Western Australia: a Report to the Western Australian Government. Sydney: National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research, University of New South Wales.(available at nothing-about-us-without-us.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/WA-Sex-Report-20101.pdf) or try Donovan, B., Harcourt, C., Egger, S., Watchirs Smith, L., Schneider, K., Kaldor, J.M., Chen, M.Y., Fairley, C.K.,Tabrizi, S., (2012). The Sex Industry in New South Wales: a Report to the NSW Ministry of Health. Sydney: Kirby Institute, University of New South Wales.( www.kirby.unsw.edu.au/projects/sex-industry-new-south-wales-report-nsw-ministry-health)

Ah but I forgot-you don?t believe surveys because no one tells the truth-its odd then that various international surveys concur in their results-that the majority of prostitutes say they choose to prostitute and the rates of reported harm are not dissimilar across jurisdictions

Libertarianj - why are you so desperate to try to convince us that prostitution is OK?

Do you go around telling black people that racism isn't harmful to society too?

Looking at the Invisible Men again tonight, there's one that says "I hope she's not trafficked." So the fact that she might be trafficked occurs to this punter as a real possibility. This doesn't seem to overly concern him as he's writing a field report on PN rather than reporting it.

I could also remember to check the link button

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlfriend_experience

it's objective and uses facts and figures, looking at trends, instead of just cherry picking a few bad punter reviews. It also analyses a healthy sample size of over 5000 reviews.

oh and you asked about the girlfriend experience, i'll just be lazy and link wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlfriend_experience

In what way is it scientific?

Here's a more scientific and less biased analysis of punternet.

jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/dirty-words-analysis-of-call-girl-reviews/

Blistory you got it.

new pimp lobby person, what you have produced is not evidence. I've been through this before, see here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a1671153-OAP-home-allows-residents-to-book-sex-workers?msgid=37035965

It's been my experience that pimp lobby sock puppets have not actually read the surveys they've quoted and have no understanding of their meaning or what makes them poor evidence. They are usually just regurgitating any old crap they've read about on a pimp or punter website.

You'll see in the linked thread why I don't believe surveys can ever be good evidence when it comes to prostitution.

Now, back to the men. What is the girl friend experience?

Nah, she's just dismissive of anyone who tries to justify using women as a wank sock.

Statistics don't show the grim reality of life. They sanitise and distance us from what really goes on and each side uses the same stats to justify their stance.

When really any person with a shred of intelligence or humanity would recognise the role that self interest plays and the extent to which sex workers need to distance themselves from their day to day reality.

I assume Flora that anyone who produces evidence you don't like is a "pimp lobby sock puppet "-and sorry being well versed in a professional capacity in statistics and surveys what particular part do you object to? The truth perhaps?

Reading back over your posts you are incredibly abusive to anyone who does not tout the line that you do.

As usual pimp lobby sock puppet doesn't understand statistics or surveys.

Ah I see now. Thank you.

REPRESENTATIVE samples of posts [] find that far from misogynists most posters are looking for some sort of intimacy

If only you were here on page one we wouldn't have had to have this lengthy discussion. I'll get onto Amazon for that further reading you've suggested. Thanks again.

Bunnylion: I have indeed read the thread-and I was responding to Flora (post today 15:26:45 being the latest) a who ad nauseum wants evidence that

1. these statements from sex workers result from perfect free agency and are not influenced by abuse, addiction, mental health issues or poverty.

1. The sex workers in question and their views are representative of sex workers as a group.

As far as buyers choices are concerned the original post providing excerpts from punternet on buyers choices were (a) rather selective-and designed to paint men as misogynist abusers (b) failed to provide the elementary details of date and post number so their veracity can be checked.
In fact Punternet and its posts have been the subject ot at least rtwo independent academic studies where representative samples were selected. So see for instance Teela Sanders " Paying for pleasure: Men Who Buy Sex" (www.amazon.co.uk/Paying-Pleasure-Men-Who-Buy/dp/1843923211) who analysed reviews and interviewed men who posted on punternet as well as Earle, Sarah and Sharp, Keith (2008). Intimacy, pleasure and the men who pay for sex. In: Letherby,
Gayle; Williams, Kate; Birch, Philip and Cain, Maureen eds. Sex as Crime? Willan.(both works by respected academics) who take pains to select REPRESENTATIVE samples of posts and find that far from misogynists most posters are looking for some sort of intimacy. Similar work in the USA (Christine Milrod & Martin A. Monto (2012): The Hobbyist and the Girlfriend Experience: Behaviors and Preferences of Male Customers of Internet Sexual Service Providers,
Deviant Behavior, 33:10, 792-810 dx.doi.org/10.1080/01639625.2012.707502 or Christine Milrod and Ronald Weitzer The Intimacy Prism : Emotion Management among the Clients of Escorts Men and Masculinities 2012 15: 447at:
DOI: 10.1177/1097184X12452148 again illustrate what buyers think they are buying

inwinoweritas have you read this thread?

It's about questioning the buyers choices, not the prostitutes. And many many times its been repeated and agree in here that no one can speak for an individual on why she has become a prostitute - the thread is about discussing the buyers choices.

Well if those comments were addressed to me flora-here is a start-it comes from a reply to Rhoda Grants consultation on criminalizing the purchase of sex in Scotland-which she has now removed from her website-response 170

para 12. You state ?The majority (emphasis added) of those who are involved in prostitution are unwilling participants? how do you know? You give no source for this information. One of the most important things when making claims about a population based on survey data is to make sure the sampled population is reflects the status of the population as a whole. If this is not done, the results are not reliable.
What is well established is that prostitution is a very sectored ?industry? the minority (generally reckoned to be 10% in the UK-estimates in other jurisdictions vary (2-25%)) work on the streets-the majority work indoors, in saunas , brothels, flats or as out-call escorts working for an agency and also independents who advertise either in newspapers or on the internet. The experience of those working in each of the sectors is very different. What you have done is generalize from street workers (the 10%) to the entire ?industry?( the other 90%); this is totally illegitimate and even then you get it wrong.
In a very large survey of those prostitutes who contacted clients via the internet (so the opposite end of the spectrum from Street workers) Suzanne Jenkins (Jenkins S 2009 PhD thesis University of Keele? Beyond gender:an examination of exploitation in sex work? summary here ebookbrowse.com/beyond-gender-an-examination-of-exploitation-in-sex-work-pdf-d121595189 ) found that (p121) ?In terms of participants longer term plans, survey question 18 addresses this topic directly, by asking: ?How much longer do you plan to do escort work for?‟ The options offered range from less than 3 months to ?I have no plans to stop escort work‟. For women, ?I have no plans to stop escort work‟ was joint first choice of answer along with ?one-five more years (both were indicated equally by 35.3% (n=101). In contrast, only 3.2% (n=9) indicated that they planned to stop in less than three months.?
That does not sound to me like ?The majority of those who are involved in prostitution are unwilling participants? and also the majority did not feel exploited ? 77% felt clients treated them with respect? (p164) and the majority had never experienced violence.
One quote from a sex worker is particularly pertinent
?I experience psychological violence every time I read about how I am supposedly "exploited" in my work. Women with whom I have had this conversation clearly are focused on the media's stereotype of this work, and have no idea that MOST of this work is carried out indoors under similar situations as what I do. I get very frustrated that so-called "feminists" work incessantly to silence those of us who do speak out about the general enjoyment (or even mere economic independence) we experience from our work.? (F475-Jade) p181
I attach the whole thesis which is worth a read. See also the responses from prostitutes to the previous consultation of Trish Godman
?I have known hundreds of female sex workers and through them many hundreds more. They enjoy their work, or if they do not, find it no more troubling ,demeaning or soul-destroying than many ?normal? office factory or other job positions. I have known thousands of clients and have found them to be entirely average examples of the male population?not simmering misogynists or would-be rapists.? rhodagrant.org.uk/consultation2012/14.pdf
?I would also like to make clear how utterly humiliating the piece of work in question (that is the consultation) is to all women, be they sex workers or not, and to all men, whether sex buyers or otherwise. It shows in no uncertain terms that all women (because all prostitutes have at some point been ordinary women) are dumb creatures who cannot (and should not) be in control of their own lives as they are sure to muck it up. Men on the other hand are portrayed as ruthless barbarians , driven by their sexual needs only? rhodagrant.org.uk/consultation2012/98.pdf
While some may be unwilling participants you cannot claim as you have that the majority are. And before you claim these views (those in the Jenkins thesis and those quoted above) represent only a minority of those in prostitution I suggest you acquaint yourself more fully with the (rather large) literature on prostitution. Work by Bleinda Brooks-Gordon (Brooks-Gordon, B. (2005) 'Clients and Commercial Sex: Reflections on Paying the Price: A Consultation Paper on Prostitution', Criminal Law Review: 425-443) and Teela Sanders (Sanders, T (2008) Paying for Pleasure: Men who Buy Sex, Willan, Cullompton) are worth reading-they show that for many of those in prostitution it is a rather mundane job.

I don't see how the scandanavian model closes down the possibility for autonomy. On the contrary it gives prostituted women more autonomy. The autonomy to leave, should they wish to, for example.

Please present evidence that:

1. these statements from sex workers result from perfect free agency and are not influenced by abuse, addiction, mental health issues or poverty.

1. The sex workers in question and their views are representative of sex workers as a group.