To love honor and 'obey'

Except that according to the OP there are still people saying it...

Actually, Punk, I don't think anyone in this discussion has said it, despite many of us being married. In fact, of those who have been mentioned it, they all seemed to be told/advised by the vicar that the phrase would not be included in the ceremony. It seems to be a bit of a non-event.

'Do both parties say obey or is it just the women'

Just the woman. It's the 'natural order of things' for the man to be in charge doncha know

Grimble, I get your point, but if the couple are saying 'till death do us part', this doesn't stop one or both pursuing a divorce at some point in the future. Same goes for the forsaking all others - plenty of married people have affairs. So, if you want to take out the obey reference, why not these other bits too? All or nothing.

Again, on a personal level, I wouldn't expect my wife to commit to something that I would refuse to say, but if she had wanted it in there, then that is her choice. I still don't see what business it is of anyone else's.

Blimey, how bizarre. I bet if their husbands did order them around, they wouldn't be very happy...

Dh asked my Mother for my hand in marriage. In a jokey, knowing way - then-dp and I had been living together for four years and everyone knew full well, had my Mother objected, I'd have gone ahead anyway. But my dratted Mother said 'take her please!' So I made him ask my Aunt, Uncle and Father as well.

They are not tying them selves to an unalterable contract, or committing themselves to something that can harm them in future

I thought they were making wedding vows i.e. promises they intend to keep and not made lightly. The vow to obey could, in theory, definitely and possibly in practice harm a woman in future.

I don't think the fact that it would not stand up in court has anything to do it with it. It is a vow namechangeguy aka a promise.

'Wouldn't the whole institution of marriage be in this archaic, parallel universe?'

Yes indeed. IMHO

Absolute vomit at anyone asking a grown woman's father's permission to do anything that involves her. But I had a grown female muppet colleague gushing just a couple of months ago about how 'sweet' it was that her fiance had asked her dad's permission before they got engaged. I couldn't help but look like this

Yes. Carol Hanlisch's essay "The Personal Is Political" said that coming to a personal realization of how "grim" the situation was for women was as important as doing political "action" such as protests. Hanisch noted that "political" refers to any power relationships, not just those of government or elected officials.

But how does that apply here? We are talking about some people who want to include certain words in their own personal ceremony. They are not tying them selves to an unalterable contract, or committing themselves to something that can harm them in future. The words uttered wont stand up in a court of law in the UK. The participants lose nothing. They are discussing it on a forum and therefore giving it some thought, rather than being coerced.

Tribot: I was a feminist from childhood i.e. the 40s and 50s. I was not implying that WLM was not thought of by 1966. Sorry if that was not clear.

Namechangeguy have you ever heard the phrase 'personal is political?'

There are two versions of the vows. If the bride promises "to obey", the husband has to promise "to worship". If the "obey" bit is left out of the bride's vows, the "worship" bit is also left out of the groom's.

Some women lose all sense of sanity where weddings are concerned. These tend to be the same women who think its "cute" when their intendeds ask their fathers permission prior to the engagement too I'll bet.

I don't get it myself. I think its more or less gone from Catholic vows which is what I would be familiar with, you can ask to have it included but I can't remember a single wedding where it was included.

My female vicar didn't give me the option, she wouldn't use it in service also the bit about man and wife she said that was outdated too. i.e not chattel of man.

Wouldn't the whole institution of marriage be in this archaic, parallel universe? You are just picking on one word of a complete ceremony that sounds like it goes against all of your principles.

FWIW, we got married in the early nineties in the West Indies, and the vicar didn't include the word either. I don't think it's encouraged any more. If individuals choose to include it, and they can find someone to say it, then what business is it of anyone else's? Unless your views are more valid than theirs, of course.

Oh for gods sake! Obey is obsolete!

I didn't say it 14 years ago and I kept my name and added my dh name and hyphenated. My sons have that name too. Many people thought I was strange for hyphenating my surname, but I'm still me as well as being in a partnership. Partnership, not a subservient role.

18 years ago our minister was unhappy with "obey" and we searched around loads of published marriage services (he also wouldn't let us make up our own vows, but the service he usually used was very mechanical).

We each said "to love and to serve, as Christ commands". As we're both Christian (in a go to church every week way, not just culturally) this was great for us - equal!

Sanity - had forgotten that about Laura Ingalls Wilder. She didn't believe women should have the vote but did see herself as an independent adult answerable only to herself (and to God).

I see your point tribpot

Grimble, according to Wiki 'The phrase "Women's Liberation" was first used in the United States in 1964, and first appeared in print in 1966.'

The minister who married us is also one who wouldn't allow the 'obey' vows. I'm pretty sure the Church of England now advise vicars/ministers not to allow it, as it could be used by husbands to justify domestic abuse/violence. I read it in an article years ago, here it is.

The first time I ever became aware of this issue was when I was reading the Little House books. When Laura married Almanzo (she was about 18, he was 10 years older) she refused to say obey.

That was about 150 years ago. FFS!