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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Radfem 2013 and the MRAs

860 replies

MooncupGoddess · 22/04/2013 17:05

As many of you will remember, the Radfem 2012 conference in London was explicitly open only to born women and consequently attracted lots of condemnation and anger from people who saw this as transphobic. It was kicked out of its original venue at Conway Hall and went underground (very successfully in the end).

This year Radfem 2013 has not explicitly banned transwomen... but instead it's come under attack from Men's Rights Activists, who have staged a demo at the planned venue, the London Irish Centre, while making lots of unpleasant and ridiculous claims about how radical feminists want to murder small boys and the like. As a result the venue is threatening to cancel the booking.

www.mralondon.org/

bugbrennan.com/2013/04/20/statement-from-rad-fem-2013/

I have mixed feelings about the whole trans issue but have no hesitation in declaring the MRAs utter misogynist knobbers and am disappointed the London Irish Centre has seemingly caved into them.

OP posts:
BubblesOfBliss · 05/05/2013 08:28

Mini " I agree but I do believe that the relations btw men and women changed for material reasons not because of some biological determinant that makes men violent."

Lazarus "There is a passage of position through the matriarchal line, but there is still the hint of the violence that could bubble up. When they chase down and kill monkeys for food."

I agree with both of you that violence isn't inevitable according to biology - of either sex, but conditions can give rise to it.

I believe that one of these conditions is the cultural normalisation of violence that has, in humans, become linked with males.

BubblesOfBliss · 05/05/2013 08:13

Thanks Mini for your post- very interesting.

"Greater individual wealth through the development of agriculture seems to be the point at which things change, with surplus came questions about progeny. Slavery and changes to the sexual relations came about with the overthrow of "mother right"

When you use the word 'agriculture' it always makes barley and wheat and 'static' farming spring to mind - but the way the development of agriculture links with the subordination of women makes the domestication of animals and 'husbandry' far more pertinent- which nomadic people can do. There still exist links between male status and the number of livestock in a number of cultures today, and the links between the methods for 'taming' animals to use to work or to eat are very similar to the methods by which women are subordinated by violent men. Controlling the reproduction of animals is not a far cry from males taking control of human reproduction and therefore subordinating women into a sex class, whereby the number of children 'he' produces is a sign of his potency and wealth, giving rise to polygyny (probably in a lot of cases by abduction and rape) and the virtual slavery of all of 'his' women who in a state of group Stockholm syndrome work, work, work - give multiple births & nurture 'his' young. Some nomadic tribes today follow this model.

LazarussLozenge · 04/05/2013 21:23

It is indeed. There's also a fair bit of incest and gay activity, oral sex, etc.

Apparently the Bonobo females clitoris is much bigger than other females, possibly due to the missionary sexual position they use, or the female on female genital rubbing.

There is a passage of position through the matriarchal line, but there is still the hint of the violence that could bubble up. When they chase down and kill monkeys for food.

Emory University's de Waal said, "We are seeing in bonobos what happened a few decades ago for chimpanzees: field studies begin to report great variation from population to population."

news.nationalgeographic.co.uk/news/2008/10/081013-bonobos-attack-missions_2.html

We could have a case of the gay penguins of New York Zoo here.

MiniTheMinx · 04/05/2013 21:19

"more of a turn-off and sexual disincentive for females than to have sexuality/fertility controlled by violent males according to their battles for social status and dominance over other males"

yy to this.

MiniTheMinx · 04/05/2013 21:15

"it seems when you explain your position the focus on economics downplays the violent establishment of inequality that gives rise to separate classes and the residual fear of that violence which helps to sustain inequality"

That's certainly possible, it is something that Marxism is often accused of, a sort of reductionism where economics becomes the be all and end all.

I'm now reading Engles (decided I must finally read this from beginning to end) He quotes Marx as saying "The modern family contains in embryo not only slavery but serfdom also, since the very beginning it is connected with agricultural services. It contains within itself in miniature all the antagonisms which later develop on a wide scale within society and its state"

So it seems that Marx acknowledged (as do I) that family is both the catalyst and a reflection of hierarchy within society. It perpetuates and mimics the class dynamics within society.

From my understanding lots of anthropologists and historians including many feminists still argue about what came first. From my understanding very early society had forms of group marriage and were matriarchal. It seems that at this time there was no slavery either because human labour didn't create surpluses.

Greater individual wealth through the development of agriculture seems to be the point at which things change, with surplus came questions about progeny. Slavery and changes to the sexual relations came about with the overthrow of "mother right"

Introduction of the pairing family and the need for monogamy along with women's labour being marginalised from "socially productive" to "reproductive" seems to be the point at which women become valued ONLY as vessels, to be traded, owned, seized and enslaved, because only with agricultural surplus can human labour create yet more surplus. No one would have kept a slave be they female or male unless they could be kept alive to work/toil/ or breed. They would only be useful if they produced a surplus be that food or indeed people. So there is a link again btw production and reproduction, as production changes so does the relationship btw men and women engaged in reproduction.

Gerder Lerner proposed that sex class came about before social class. I agree but I do believe that the relations btw men and women changed for material reasons not because of some biological determinant that makes men violent. The violence comes later, in order to maintain the social/material power and extend this.

BubblesOfBliss · 04/05/2013 20:46

Perhaps Matriarchy leads to - or doesn't inhibit- natural promiscuity? Its quite possible that nothing is more of a turn-off and sexual disincentive for females than to have sexuality/fertility controlled by violent males according to their battles for social status and dominance over other males.

Also a lot of bonobo sexual activity is lesbian - I say that just in case of any possible presumption that heightened sexual behaviour is the way that female bonobos appease males.

LazarussLozenge · 04/05/2013 20:15

OOOh,

as a further teaser... worth noting that in religion the sexuality of a woman is often seens as a sin, or as naughty. Did the framers of such rules know that a sexual woman could be a threat, leading to a matriarchal structure?

LazarussLozenge · 04/05/2013 20:13

Do you need the promiscuity along with being matriarchal?

You dislike violence and male dominance, but we are physically strong, hence the violence, and focuse on strength, endurance and what not.

In order for a matriarchal society maybe the females need to seize power by holding the men in thrall with sex.

The Bonobos apparently shag to reduce tension in the group, and with straying lone males they encounter (Common Chimps would form a gang and kill the lone male).

Whilst this reduces violence, it also increases the gene pool depth.

The problem with using animal kingdom examples is that they don't necessarily fit another species... we don't have 'let's live like a fish' do we?

Also in comparison with Common Chimps the Bonobos Chimp lives in an area where there is a lot of food, veg and the like. They still kill monkeys (as do the common chipm) for food.

I would put forward that if we started reducing food levels, we would see a more violent Bonobo.

There is also a chicken and egg question.

The Bonobo and Common chimp re genetically similar, but were divided by a water mass years ago.

So were the two similar to Bonobo to start with, with violence caused by lack of resources. Or were they similar to the Common chimp with violence gradually replaced by sex due to abundant resources?

BubblesOfBliss · 04/05/2013 19:49

"I've had to google Bonobos... but the premise seems to be that if human females put out more, we'd have less violence."

Or perhaps if we were matriarchal?

LazarussLozenge · 04/05/2013 19:32

Elites may benefit, but wars can be justifiable to the plebs too.

Even if we go back to thousands of years before Christ we have a hierarchy in place. Be that Chiefs of villages, religious 'families' or those who had property and those who worked for them.

I've had to google Bonobos... but the premise seems to be that if human females put out more, we'd have less violence.

It would definitely work on a Fri/Sat night in town!

BubblesOfBliss · 04/05/2013 19:11

This image was the scramble he added

MiniTheMinx · 04/05/2013 18:32

Hi Bubbles, will read your posts and respond once I know what was going on at : 17:09:21 with Loz, what is that jumbled mess about? Is that even allowed?

BubblesOfBliss · 04/05/2013 18:04

Sorry I should have said 'with the closest common ancestor'

BubblesOfBliss · 04/05/2013 17:24

Regarding this: "Course we weren't peaceful, and nor were the women. We had to dominate the area we lived in and conquer"
I do not agree, but with this:
"or at least deter violence from, from tribes/villages/states."
I do agree. The establishment of a class system is created by a group with the former mentality systematically terrorising a group that were not successful in the latter behaviour.

"Classes/castes were ALWAYS evident."
Evidence please. Social groupings of people have not been large enough to create class/castes for millennia.

"Probably came from alpha males/females from our monkey pack days" There is a variance between the internal hierarchies and behaviours towards different packs depending upon species. For example - our 2 closest ancestors -the bonobos and chimpanzees are very different in this respect.

"Violence against their own interests? That would be a complex one." In this I am specifically referring to Minis argument that wars are for the benefit of elites.

LazarussLozenge · 04/05/2013 17:09

Course we weren't peaceful, and nor were the women. We had to dominate the area we lived in and conquer, or at least derter violence from, from tribes/villages/states.

Classes/castes were ALWAYS evident. Probably came from alpha males/females from our monkey pack days.

A culture of genderisation has followed but that was probably more a control measure.

Violence against their own interests? That would be a complex one. At what level do you map the two sets of interests?

Individually it is not in your own interest to run at a machine gun nest, or charge a line of shields. Bt as a group it is very much in their interests, as the groups will succeed in their objective.

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

Task - Team - Individual (needs).

And how you have to balance them all.

BubblesOfBliss · 04/05/2013 16:07

What I mean is that I don't agree with the implication that men were a lovely peaceful, woman-respecting bunch, until separate classes appeared (from where?- not simply as the result of free markets) and the powerful ones created a culture of violent masculinity from nothing to make the less powerful males act out violence against their own interests for the benefit of this powerful elite. (I know Mini you've already established there is a dialectic between base & superstructure in the creation of the cultural norms, but I think this still stands).

LazarussLozenge · 04/05/2013 15:59

I referred to headlocking the man rights groups too.

True equality if ever I saw it.

It isn't violent masculinity - genderisation.

BubblesOfBliss · 04/05/2013 15:55

I just wanted to return to the topic of cultural violent masculinity and how this pre-dates and underpins social class inequality. Because Mini although I agree with much of what you say, it seems when you explain your position the focus on economics downplays the violent establishment of inequality that gives rise to separate classes and the residual fear of that violence which helps to sustain inequality.

A culture of violent masculinity gives men of every class an entitled sense of 'controlling' women, girls, children, as being their right. For example they may in an off-the-cuff manner say something like "I'll get them all in a headlock until they start playing nice".

I believe that class equality (in a communist sense) will contribute to, but can't fully address, the ending of violent masculinity and the feeling of male entitlement to dominate, control and accumulate by force that goes with it.

LazarussLozenge · 04/05/2013 07:53

And by that I mean remnd them 'no talk, no resolution'.

They have a imperative to launch open public debate in to such topics.

Flipping off a few sound bytes here and there, that are not in a position to be discussed no matter how credible is just not going to wash.

LazarussLozenge · 03/05/2013 20:28

Or I'll get them all in a headlock until they start playing nice.

FloraFox · 03/05/2013 20:15

If they want to, they will. If they don't want to, they won't. Simple.

LazarussLozenge · 03/05/2013 20:09

Sorry, I am but one person...

Maybe RadFem can sort something by opening a dialogue with other groups relevant to their arguments.

The first on the debate could be 'who should pay?' I'm sure that would create a good deal of discussion - dutch or gentlemen pay?

FloraFox · 03/05/2013 20:01

On you go then. Let me know when and where.

LazarussLozenge · 03/05/2013 20:01

YOU even said taht these speakers want to speak in public... so let's hire a hall, crank up the PA and get something on.

LazarussLozenge · 03/05/2013 19:59

Flora,

There you go again. Is it cos I is male, init?

I at no point alluded that my permission, nor anybody else's was required. Just that the practice of single sex discussions doesn't seem a very clever way of going about things.