Radfem 2013 and the MRAs

"an inbuilt assurance that he is right," I wonder why?

What is really tiresome about Loz is that he doesn't actually understand most of the arguments people are making but that he's still fucking here, telling us all what we fucking believe, because he hasn't actually grasped what we do believe, because he's just not capable of following our arguments, but he's also not capable of understanding that he's not following our arguments IYSWIM - he has that in-built assurance that he obviously knows better than us therefore we are talking crap. It's so boring and it successfully de-rails an otherwise very interesting thread.

Also the other thing that's tiresome about him is his pretence that he knows nothing - oh no, not a single little thing - about Men's Rights Extremism and that it's only because of this thread and the narsty raging feminazis on it who have enabled him to see the light and understand that we need MRE to curb the malevolent females. Before this thread, he was a liberal who believed in equality and all that, but now - well, he can see why MRA's and MRE is necessary, he had no idea there was a coven of witches on the internet planning on butchering the baby boys and establishing the Matriarchiate.

It's all so fucking boring.

Laz (Wed 08-May-13 20:15:09): False/malicious accusations are as odious as the actual act, if not more so.

Laz (Thu 09-May-13 20:28:39): As for which is best, being a rape victim or being the victim of a false accusation...

I find such talk contemptible, that anyone would come out with such crass comparisons leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Contradict yourself much?

I'm getting a bit pissed off with the massive generalisations Loz. "you, think, say, believe........." do I? who is you? feminists? All feminists? All women?

Why don't you just fuck off? Genuine question.

Bubbles, I've removed your comparison.

'remember if you violently rape someone you only have a 1 in 20 chance of doing time for it- being raped, you are most likely to be traumatised, have your confidence jolted, flashbacks, intimate relationships damaged, your options narrowed and it could take a lot of work to get on track -although being male you have a greater likelihood of being believed and getting a conviction than a woman and can't get pregnant, so its not quite like for like.)'

I suppose you think a man falsely accused can just carry on normal jogging? Not looking over his shoulder for some vigilante looking to make a name for themselves?

Some false accusations occur after a one night stand or date... hardly conducive of encouraging further communications with women? Relationships, intimate or otherwise, can be damaged.

Obviously an accusation can narrow options also... taking a lot of work to get back to where you were.

Now then let's address the issue of 1 in 20 chance... is that really down to them being male or the simple fact that the prosecution hasn't convinced the judge/jury of the accused guilt?

Do you really want to live in a country that would jail you or carry out other sanctions on the mere possibility of you being guilty?

I guess that is all lost on you.

Whoops, Bridle, not bridal... Freudian slip per chance.

I don't know about joining the dots, you lot would appear to be unable to find your own backsides with both hands.

Good to see you've all jumped on the 'rape bandwagon' despite it being quite clear I was referring to all types of crime.

As for which is best, being a rape victim or being the victim of a false accusation...

I find such talk contemptible, that anyone would come out with such crass comparisons leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

I doubt I ever had much credibility with you, your posts 'leak' a certain perspective also, but you can all rest assured you have lost a fair bit of credibility with myself.

Your comments also reveal why we MUST have organisations to stand for men's rights also. Strange really, as I never really saw much need for either group.

Men are not affected by false accusations? Rubbish. There was one lad, who even after being cleared and the name of his female accuser (who was subsequently found guilty of maliciously lying) released was beaten and chased from his home.

This is not a unique occurrence. Those accused of rape, in my experience (from reading papers and the like I hasten to add) are NOT regarded as you say. Nor are the victims.

Your view appears to be very woman-centric. Again we have 'only women can suffer' argument, because yet again you can only see things from your own blinkered position.

You seem to fight the weight of the 'patriarchy', whilst donning the bridal of the 'matriarchy'.

Resistance is futile.

Hi Laz

Would you prefer to be anally raped or to be falsely accused of rape?

And, since it's all false accusations that are as odious or more, Would you prefer to be badly beaten or falsely accused of beating someone? Would you prefer to be murdered or be falsely accused of murder?

Just to clarify too, in the UK criminal legal system the victim (of a mugging, assault, rape etc) is a witness, not the accuser. The Crown leads the prosecution and can do so without calling the victim as a witness.

"False/malicious accusations are as odious as the actual act"

What does that even mean?

AFAIC anyone who pretends that being falsely accused of rape is as bad as being raped, simply loses any credibility that they might once have had (not that Loz had any, but still). It just declares that you're a woman-hater.

Men who are accused of rape are overwhelmingly likely to be guilty; false allegations of rape amount to about 3 or 4%, if that. But those men are showered with sympathy, solidarity and support from everyone around them who kneejerk assume that the allegation are false and that this man is one of those terribly unlucky individuals who are the victims of women's lying, manipulative, generally evil nature. Even in the extremely unlikely event that the allegation makes it to court and then the even more unlikely event that the man is found guilty, there will be a core group of supporters who insist either that his victim is a lying slut, or that he did do it, but it's not actually rape, it's just bad sex. When they come out of prison, they usually find another woman willing to have a relationship with them.

It is simply untrue to say that men suffer as when they are falsely accused of rape as women do when they are actually raped. People who say that, do so because they simply don't believe that women's suffering is anything like as important or worthy of concern, as that of men.

"I used that example because on the list of groups that was one on eo fo the groups." Not sure what this sentence means or why its here.

"Good to see, yet again, this 'everyone is against us' mentality surface." You'll have to explain what you mean - everyone against women? No I actually think patriarchy and its defenders are against women. Everyone against feminists? No I think patriarchy and its defenders are against feminists. How you came to form this sentence has no logical pathway I can glean.

"False/malicious accusations are as odious as the actual act" - so what would you prefer- to be violently raped, or to be accused of violently raping someone? (hint-remember if you violently rape someone you only have a 1 in 20 chance of doing time for it- being raped, you are most likely to be traumatised, have your confidence jolted, flashbacks, intimate relationships damaged, your options narrowed and it could take a lot of work to get on track -although being male you have a greater likelihood of being believed and getting a conviction than a woman and can't get pregnant, so its not quite like for like.)

"if not more so." mmmmmm......... I think I'd rather have words than physical violence myself. Very strange priorities there. Malevolent woman-hatred is starting to seep through your lack of empathy...

"The belief that someone can just shrug the accusation off, on being cleared, is absurd." I remember that woman who was set up by a tabloid to accuse the Hamiltons of rape. As far as I remember they got away with their reputations unscathed by it, the truth came out and everyone quickly put the woman in the stereotype box of 'some nutter' and moved on.

"With background checks on job applicants becoming ever more prevalent even accusations of quite mundane crimes could affect the individual unduly. The internet means you can't even move to a new town/area." You are starting to sound a bit too familiar with this process...

"The basic premise is 'innocent until proven guilty', even Romans had this outlook, the burden of proof was on the accuser not the accused." Yup and it still is, and not just the burden of proof, but when the accuser is a woman the burden of sexist stereotypes which make her seem an unreliable witness is also upon her, working against her and in favour of the male accused.

"Again, you seem to assume to know too much of what I may believe. I used an example of an MRA activity I agree with and wasn't in agreement with whatever nonsense FeministDragon spouted." Your posts are peppered generously with controlling turns of phrase and leak out a consistent misogynist perspective.....

"I didn't tell you what I believed, in detail, did I?" You don't need to - I can join the dots between all the attitudes leaking out of your posts.

'vesuvia Wed 08-May-13 20:15:40

Then perhaps MRAs could consider adding campaigns to support men who have been raped by men?'

I'll look in to it, but I'd imagine their stance covers that as well.

Is this another of those knee jerk reactions because all MRAs must be bad is it?

Remember I am not personally responsible for the beliefs of MRAs.

'vesuvia Wed 08-May-13 20:09:48

I've recently read that women are conscripted into military service by ten countries. Therefore, conscription is of interest to feminists because women are conscripted. The conscription of men is also of concern to feminists because any military conscription upholds patriarchal values, which many feminists oppose.'

The groups listed were American during the Vietnam War. Therefore women were not affected.

I had a feeling someone would google and find the countries who conscript.

Let's think China, NKorea, Israel, Cuba, Taiwan and Tunisia... who are the others?

I said let's drop it because it would merely tie up resources debating a topic not that relevant to the thread.

Arf.

LazarussLozenge wrote - "The only mention of rape appears to be those groups fighting (rightly) for the rights of those men falsely accused of rape."

Then perhaps MRAs could consider adding campaigns to support men who have been raped by men?

Bubbles,

I used that example because on the list of groups that was one on eo fo the groups.

Good to see, yet again, this 'everyone is against us' mentality surface.

Yes, I am actually against revealing the identity of ALL accused, unless guilt is proven or in a probability of guilt/probability of help balance - a decision to be taken by a judge or other responsible person after due consideration.

False/malicious accusations are as odious as the actual act, if not more so. The belief that someone can just shrug the accusation off, on being cleared, is absurd.

These sort of cases are merely the lead cases, with the massive change in media over the years people can not just 'shrug' accusations off. No matter how hard.

With background checks on job applicants becoming ever more prevalent even accusations of quite mundane crimes could affect the individual unduly. The internet means you can't even move to a new town/area.

The basic premise is 'innocent until proven guilty', even Romans had this outlook, the burden of proof was on the accuser not the accused.

Again, you seem to assume to know too much of what I may believe. I used an example of an MRA activity I agree with and wasn't in agreement with whatever nonsense FeministDragon spouted.

I didn't tell you what I believed, in detail, did I?

Flora, I never argued about my personality. If you are referring to the ditching of the restaurant analogy, we can go at it if you wish. I said let's drop it because it would merely tie up resources debating a topic not that relevant to the thread.

LazarussLozenge wrote - "A quick trawl of MRA groups seems to indicate a wide spectrum of male interests covered. Even some that have nothing to do with you feminists, ie conscription."

I've recently read that women are conscripted into military service by ten countries. Therefore, conscription is of interest to feminists because women are conscripted. The conscription of men is also of concern to feminists because any military conscription upholds patriarchal values, which many feminists oppose.

This thread really
demonstrates why a hide poster button wd be so useful

I am like this with men too. It's just my nature to not just think I am right, but know I am right.

Archetypal pub bore. Loses argument so changes it. Yawn.

"those groups fighting (rightly) for the rights of those men falsely accused of rape."

I would only think they were 'rightly' fighting for 'rights' if they were fighting for men falsely accused of theft, burglary, drug dealing, ABH, robbery, fraud, etc- the whole range of crimes....... The fact they focus exclusively on supposed 'false accusations', only for those crimes against women where chronic under-reporting, disbelieving, victim-blaming, low conviction rates occur - shows they simply hate women. There is no fighting for 'rights' about it. If you think they do this 'rightly' Lazarus - congratulations, you can now call yourself a fully paid-up, card-carrying misogynist.

Flora, don't sweat about it. It isn't a woman thing. I am like this with men too. It's just my nature to not just think I am right, but know I am right.

As one of my bosses once said 'you're not the only one who can be right you know'... about an hour later I was proved to be the only one who was right but that's by the by.

If you want the restaurant taken out, it's gone.

Now back to insurance.

Now we have ridded ourselves of sexism in the provision of insurance, we have the precedence needed to rid ourselves of the injustices of age, experience, past claims, garaged or on the street parking, milage and so on.

Makes getting a quote easier I suppose... unless we rid ourselves of the inherent inequality of differing prices too.

-----------

FeministDragon, good to see you're a well balanced person; with a chip on both shoulders.

A quick trawl of MRA groups seems to indicate a wide spectrum of male interests covered. Even some that have nothing to do with you feminists, ie conscription.

The only mention of rape appears to be those groups fighting (rightly) for the rights of those men falsely accused of rape.

MRA = misogyny rapey arseholes who rape and beat women

It's not equivalent. In a restaurant, you order meal, get meal, eat meal. Benefit received/food served vs price paid will always be the same. With insurance, you buy a right to a receive a payment on the happening of a specified event, subject to conditions. Totally different.

You have no sense of "this feminism thing". You don't get it at all. Don't let that stop you telling the wimmin how it is though.

Not quite Flora.

The equivalence arguments I said were false were the animal kingdom ones.

In this instance the restaurant is equivalent. You are buying a service according to your needs/wants.

The fact you find this stance odd says much. I am not 'twisting in the wind' just putting across my stance. Sorry if it confuses you, of course your could be under the delsusion I am in sort secretive patriarchy or MRA.

Now then... equivalence.

We now have the male and female paying the same regardless of what they eat in the restaurant.

When in walks a OAP couple and a 18yo couple...

How much do they pay? Surely Ageism should be wiped out?

a 1, a 2, a 1, 2, 3, 4

'If you tolerate this, then your children will be neeeeeexxxxxxttttt'.

What's that? You've only got a 1.2litre 12 year old shed, why should you pay the same as the owner of a 3.6 litre porsche.

'Will be next, will be nexxxxxxttttt'.

I'm getting the sense that this feminism thing is perhaps to mixed in with left wing ideals...

www.ageuk.org.uk/work-and-learning/discrimination-and-rights/forced-retirement/