Radfem 2013 and the MRAs

I don't want to offend but I feel very strongly that A) free will is not god given B) doesn't exist because we are socialised into thinking in certain ways long before we develop the ability to think philosophically C) religion hampers the process of thinking philosophically.

Religion is man made as are all the other narratives we use to explain and give meaning to life. Man made god in his own image and used this belief to perpetuate inequality and falsehood, to appropriate the power of creativity away from women. Claiming that a single male in the body of god is responsible for giving life.

When it fails at an abstract and spiritual level, then enters the man himself......and look it is a man but this time he dies to give us life. God comes to us as a man, as a mere mortal that dies on the cross, how bloody and macabre is it and so male centred to believe that only in death can you give new life. So complete is this lie than many millions of men have lost their lives through war to defend it.

I have a joke for y'all

How did feminism start?

An unlocked kitchen door!

Thought this was an immense joke, hope you guys like it haha

I had to namechange.

I hope the Biblical reference and the irony isn't lost on our Christian friend.

Elohim, forgive me for being blunt, but you seem to be believing some rather implausible things.

Did someone tell you radical feminists are in favour of women being allowed to commit violent crime with no legal consequence?

I am a bit gobsmacked that you believed that, actually.

Elohim feminists don't want to take rights away from men. They want to remove male privilege. It's not the same thing. You're arguing against a straw man as it were. The thing you think you're against just doesn't exist.

Gotta say, I always think it is problematic, the law on women and rape. I don't know the right answer.

oops, left tab open too long before posting. Will now go back and read.

So many interesting points Flora much that I agree with. On the point about MRAs and the fact that many of these men seem to want to maintain power over the women of their class and resort to the age old violence of either actual &/or threats to rape and violence against women. Absolutely. I also agree with Mooncup that socialisation leads to men being perceived as lacking the skills that are suited to changes. Certain skills seem to be gendered and it is false to assume only women can do certain work.

I do think there are other issues, there is a dichotomous process under advanced capitalism with the requirement for two things: cheap flexible labour & unpaid work mostly carried out by women within the family.

Exploiting women as cheap labour, a move towards flexi, part time, low skilled non-manual and zero hrs contracts coupled with the neo-lib pressure to privatise everything from childcare to old age, education & health leaves women leaves carrying the burden of both paid and unpaid work.

This is very beneficial to the capitalist because labour is cheap and flexible whilst new markets in health and welfare can be pursued.

Men think they are having a hard time? well..... there seems to be more MRA activity since the financial downturn! maybe they should direct the ire at the real cause of their angst.

I have found what I had been reading, linky here readingfromtheleft.com/PDF/EngelsOrigin.pdf

I had saved it, haven't read all of it. Engle's ideas about social anthropology are increasingly being vindicated with new evidence. It's the forward to Pat Brewer's edition of the Origin. I know I have read about new evidence elsewhere but can't remember where

elohim, you are not standing up for equal rights, as tunip has explained.

Why don't you care about the little girls who are being aborted or killed, or die through neglect?

Do you not think Jesus meant them too?

And yes, this definitely touches a nerve, the idea of generations of women who are missing from our planet being ignored by someone who only cares about the boys, not about the children of both sexes and their poor mothers who are forced into this shitty position.

As to the quotation: '"Long before the child (boy or girl) learns to talk properly, and long before it learns to think philosophically, the world will have become a habit. A pity if you ask me."'

Do you agree with this, or disagree? It's not clear.

Am I missing something that image is saying? I can only get the image.

I am uneasy about the issues around trans politics and I do feel strongly that it matters to be compassionate. But I also feel as chub does that there is a real worry about that agenda being hijacked by MRAs.

I also think it is important to be able to talk about trans issues - as we sometimes manage to on here - without everything being shouted down into binary 'you're so transphobic'/ 'OMG, you hate women!' shite.

To all of you who have put comments to mine - You really have made my day because it seems as though I have touched a nerve for some of you?!!!

"Long before the child (boy or girl) learns to talk properly, and long before it learns to think philosophically, the world will have become a habit. A pity if you ask me."

I believe we're all equals as human beings and neither should be discriminated. Being a Christian myself is the reason why I brought Jesus into this matter I certainly wasn't trying to offend anyone's religion. Let me remind you what Jesus said? "Let the little ones come onto me." he welcomed both boys and girls with open arms and certainly wasn't casting boys aside because they would end up as rapists and nor was he doing the same with the girls. God gives us free will and it it's up to us which paths we take. Women can be just as abusive and can be rapists too - as I have seen and witnessed from my own experiences. All I am trying to do is making a stand for ALL EQUAL RIGHTS. Let me give you and example, "What gives the right for a woman to rape or physically violently abuse a boy or a man and get away with it? Whereas if it were the other way round and the man was raping or physically violently abusing a woman then he would be arrested and locked up." There needs to be a sense of justice and society and media towards men has to change - there are some really nice guys out there - says myself who suffered sexual and physical abuse from my own Father and past relationships - so there is nothing you can't tell me I already don't know. I fight for what I believe in and will continue to do so :-)

I can't say I have massively looked into Brennan's stance on anything, but if her opinion on transgender is as attributed then I don't agree with her. I think trans women are women. I can understand the fear that done radfems have that basically some cunt MRA puts on a dress and demands to be let into the conference claiming to be transgender. . I totally see that is something that could happen.

As for Brennan .... you know every single feminist doesn't agree with every single feminist in every single issue. I see no reason why the entire Debste should be constantly high jacked by the agenda of "ooh Brennan said some nasty stuff online therefore all radfems are evil bigots/wannabe child murderers blah blah blah" whining.

Actually I do see the reason. It's a deliberate attempt to derail and set the agenda because the idea of women talking amongst themselves about issues that are important scared the fucking living day lights out of some men.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=1.bp.blogspot.com/-6xvqQarVNWk/UBgAdrA-tTI/AAAAAAAAYU8/cJ3L2uwSYHI/s1600/12Cathy%2Bbrennan%2Bhatin.jpg&imgrefurl=transgriot.blogspot.com/2012/07/sorry-youre-vanillacentric-privileged.html&h=535&w=500&sz=50&tbnid=Qrc_TX8UJV0msM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=84&zoom=1&usg=__btD8HSlNLFaEF-pLrbSCpqAu0Eo=&docid=AHjn20j62lh0AM&sa=X&ei=osB3UZWaNqGI0AWSooG4Cg&ved=0CFUQ9QEwAw&dur=387" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Cathy Brennan, humanitarian

What Tunip said.

Seriously, Elohim, do you seriously think rad fems want to kill boy babies? Truly?
I just want to know how this all works.
Do you think these people who said something nasty about boys are, like, secret leaders, and those of us on here who have boy babies ourselves and don't know anything about the secret Killing Them All plan, are being really naive and we will discover that we've signed up to something really sinister and they'll take us into the woods and make us hand our babies over?
Or do you think there is a power struggle within the International Rad Fem Conspiracy Organisation between the pro-killing-boy-babies side and the anti-killing-boy-babies side? And if so, is it that we know about it and are all being dishonest on here and pretending we don't know about it, or is it kept secret from the members?
I just want to know what you think goes on.

I've no clue what the killing boy babies thing is about, and obviously can't check now. I am pretty ok with dismissing it as 'people being weird on the internet', whether it's MRAs making stuff up or what.

As you say, it's rather more sad and concerning if we're actually talking about abortion/infanticide, which is a huge feminist issue.

or alternatively Elohim just didn't know about the missing girl babies, and honestly thought the quotes the MRAs are circulating had something to do with the actual agenda of all rad fems

Elohim, I wasn't even going to respond to your post because you have such a bizarre idea about what radical feminism is about, based on what some people who might or might not have been radfems might or might not have said once on the internet. But this line here struck me:

'but to even contemplate the idea of wanting to kill the child as a baby boy before it has had a chance to live is beyond me? Discrimination from birth'

Absolutely. Of course killing boy babies would be bizarre and wrong. And you think the same about killing girl babies too, I trust. Because that ACTUALLY HAPPENS, and in enormous numbers.

In China alone it is estimated that over a million girl babies are aborted every year, and that tens of thousands of girl babies go missing each year. Tens of thousands. Babies are being killed for their sex and it is not boy babies it is happening to and it is certainly not rad fems who are doing it.

This is some of the violence against women and girls that rad fems are concerned about. You know, the ACTUAL violence, that IS HAPPENING NOW. As opposed to the imaginary violence that some MRAs claim rad fems would do to boys in some imaginary future where we ruled the world (which is not what we are aiming for anyway - we want true equality between the sexes, not domination).

Why you have decided that something someone said on the internet is a more pressing problem than the actual deaths that really happen, and why you think the women who meet to organise against actual male violence should be stopped from doing so, because of something that may have been said by a completely unconnected woman on another continent, is a complete mystery. The only reason I can think of is that you really don't think girls matter as much as boys. It is a bit bizarre and insulting to girls really.

flora - brilliant post. You summed it up. Reet then, I will bite for elohim.

Hi, as a much loved Aunty to many nieces and nephews I can't believe what I am actually reading here.

I have a niece too, two much-loved brothers and a very dear husband.

I am pleased that the website previously owned by Cathy Brennan is now defunct - thank God - we all have to be grateful for small mercies.

While I didn't get to see the website, and have no reason to disbelieve the posters who've already explained all might not be as it seems, I've been fortunate enough to hear from Cathy Brennan on occasion (I've never met her), and she always seems intelligent and compassionate and interested. I'm sure I might not agree with her about everything, but I can't help feeling she is being stigmatized here and it's rather nasty.

I am a female member of "MRA London" and as a men's rights activist, I am appalled that such an organisation as Rad Fem could be entertained on here!

'Rad Fem' is not an organization so far as I know - it's a conference. Lots of us are going. It's not being 'entertained' on here, it's being discussed.

I am aghast that the men I work with can be classed and condemned as misogynist violent women-hating bastards.

Not working with misogynistic violent women-haters would solve that problem. The word 'bastard' is a fairly disgustingly misogynistic term, you know.

I'm not even going to get into the Jesus stuff. As a Christian, I am disgusted and quite seriously offended that you're exploiting the religion many people sincerely believe in, to support this rubbish.

There, all out.

Now I shall wonder why I bothered, I know.

Ive been following this with interest although not understanding everything but the insertion of a middle eastern jewish guy from 2 millenia ago has me a little . Eh?
Is the conference something that can be booked late? I'm waiting on a surgery date that is late May/early June.

Oh, Elohim- you might find it useful to read a bit about what all those men and boys you love think of you:
www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html
there is no reason to think UK is any different to US
Why do you want to maintain the situation that creates 1 in 12 men admitting to acts fitting the legal definition of rape? And lets them believe it's not rape? And lets you believe that 1 in 12 men are not rapists?

www.amazon.co.uk/Toward-Anthropology-Women-Rayna-Reiter/dp/0853453993
books.google.co.uk/books/about/Engels_Revisited.html?id=dtoOAAAAQAAJ&redir_esc=y

those books are quite good updates of Engels