Radfem 2013 and the MRAs

Good spot Plenty. Not much of a name change those is it?

No, it's making me wonder why you bothered

Cheers Sabrina, I still lament the loss of the times website.

Mini.

If we were all at the top of Maslav's pyramid I am sure we'd all be a lot happier.

And if they are genuinely troubled they should receive help.

It is a delicate balance, I can see how someone would be put off reporting a crime if a recent 'false' was widely reported (which they invariably are) but I'd imagine if you had been falsely accused and named in the papers, you'd want the fact that it was a false accusation broadcast far and wide.

Perhaps more of a reason why such trials could be conducted out of the public eye, or under alias? A perjury case against a genuinely troubled accuser could similarly be kept under the radar of the popular press.

PD? Personality disorder? Sorry, it took me 4 hours the other day to figure out 'PIV'.

Are ALL victims allowed an advocate? Or can they ask for them? Even a trained Saphire policewoman could be seen as 'establishment' so could put off victims.

How many 'havens' are there nationwide? And how are they advertised? ie do School girls get briefed in on them? Uni students on freshers week or simlar?

Good spot Plenty. Not much of a name change those is it?

Running?

I am questing only two statistics. 38% of victims never tell anyone... so how is the figure arrived at?

9 out of 10 are not reported... so how is the figure arrived at?

Neither figure is sufficiently explained. If you have a link, I'll read it.

I've read about the havens, so are we saying only 1 out of 10 reported crime to these establishments then go to the police?

Just to be clear, Laz, Keir Starmer's report was conducted a long time after the Stern report. It is the "more investigation on false claims."

I do hope that helps straighten the matter out for you.

The false allegations seem to get written off as caused by some sort of social/mental/emotional problem

Its difficult to get stats on this but some believe that approximately 15% of false accusations are made by women who have mental health problems. DP works with women who have personality disorders (as have I in the past) many have been victims of domestic, childhood physical/sexual abuse. Many have a background in prostitution and exhibit many risk taking behaviours which may also make them vulnerable to a wide range of abuse incl rape and assault. So whilst some may make false accusations, some may actually be written off because there is an assumption that "these" women are apt to make unsubstantiated claims about any number of things. But why might they cry rape when they cry wolf?

Should these women be taken to task by the legal system or do we need to look at the big picture and conclude that there is something very flawed within society that leads to women feeling that "crying" rape might be their only currency. I wonder whether empowered, positive, happy, fulfilled, highly educated, high achieving, respected, validated women make false accusations? I don't think so. I think the 15% estimate is too low.

I'm afraid I don't click on Daily Hate Links as a matter of principle (after the Philpotts business) - but I would really doubt whether anything in there that is properly reliable.

You could take a look at Keir Starmer's findings on false rape. www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/under_the_spotlight/

Misrepresented by many people, at the time, for whatever twisted agenda they were following (including the BBC Newsbeat ) so I linked directly to the cps website to negate any bias.

Sabrina,

I get where you are coming from on that, but why would the stern report ask for more investigation on false claims?

I'd actually be so bold* as to say if so few actually make it to court, and conviction it could be seen as a very easy way to get someone 'shaken up' by certain people.

Some of the reports I've read seem to indicate that the cases that reach the papers are the ones that (if you like) went too far. The accusers often have other claims behind them which didn't get so far as charging.

One resulted in a jail sentence of 5 years, turned over after 3yrs. This false accuser had made other false accusations under her belt, she changed her name repeatedly, so Police never joined up the dots.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1287534/Innocent-Warren-Blackwell-served-3-years-false-rape-claim-fantasist.html

The false allegations seem to get written off as caused by some sort of social/mental/emotional problem.

*I'm sure this will attract lots of scorn.

Ah - so you're in the "questioning the accepted crime statistics" game are you, Laz?

Quelle surprise.

Mini,

PD?

Without going to much in to it, what actual proof was there? that you could put in front of jury and expect a reasonable chance of conviction?

running, I can visualise the numbers potentially involved. I am wanting to know how such numbers are arrived at.

Doctrine, but as rape victims are so highly regarded and always believed in our society, it's little wonder that women are tempted into making false reports....?

Oh, maybe not.

Hi Laz

I have been very polite to you and I do not appreciate your post.

It's just that I tend to use the phrase "it's X's word vs Y's word" in situations like when my DC each claim the other pushed them ie when I think there's about a 50:50 chance of either lying. But you might use it differently.

Always interesting when there's a namechange isn't it?

Funny feeling of deja vu here. Sabrina's right, the topic does always get around to rape in the end.

I'm sure you'll read much that meets your approval on every single MRA site you can find, Laz. Now that this site has drawn MRA's (that you'd never previously heard of) to your attention, of course.

However, I was referring to stuff like this.

And bear in mind this is only one example.

I've been lurking on this thread for what feels like weeks. I have loved the discussions between Bubbles and Mini - I've learnt a lot, both of you.

Laz, your tedious posts illustrate beautifully why feminists might choose to have a conference for feminists - so they don't have to go back to square one every fucking time they discuss anything, just to accommodate the numpty who can't be bothered to do the most basic research into what feminism is about.

Nice name change though LazEruss, that 'e' really suits you

Sabrina, I am reading much... like the Stern report. And a few other sites, from all angles... although oddly not from what, I assume, are MRA sites. There naming puts me off.

Doctrine, still fantasizing about me being beaten up or raped?

Hey Laz, take a look at THIS

Hi Laz

In a "her word against his word" scenario, in what proportion of scenarios do you think someone who has committed a crime is lying about it and in what proportion do you think someone has made up a story about a crime being committed?

Funny how Laz "I've never even heard of an MRA before this thread" Lozenge is suddenly such an expert on rape, isn't it?

Yes, Laz - misogynist police. Dealing with rape cases and pressurising women to withdraw complaints.

Google IPCC, Sapphire unit and rape and have a read of what comes up.

Then have a look at these - rape myths that are pervasive in our society, amongst both males and females who sit on juries.

'BubblesOfBliss Sun 12-May-13 15:35:37

I just want to be clear the 95% refers to reported rapes. Most don't end up in court. When multiplied by the huge number of unreported rapes, the number of men raping with impunity is mind-bogglingly high.'

Unreported crimes shouldn't count. How can that figure be in any way reliable? How do you gauge if the events happened as described or even at all? Who collates these 'unreported' figures? How do they know they are not missing a a lot of victims out of the count?

How do you arrive at a figure of 38% of victims don't tell anybody? By definition, they haven't told anybody.

If you can explain how those to figures are arrived at, I'm all ears.

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/23/rape-conviction-rate-high

63% conviction rate of those charged.

Remembering that by the crimes very nature it usually boils down to a 'her word v his word' trial, I'd say the Police and CPS do a fair job.

If the proof isn't there, there is little point bringing it to court. The current surge of claims from the 60's, 70's etc against a number of prominent figures recently, are going to be added to that figure (95% reported do't result in convictions) are they not?

Do the police really stand much of a chance in bringing those reports to charging? Can the CPS really bring those charged to conviction?

Hi Laz

Being pro anonymity for all accused of crimes (and presumably all victims of crime?) is not the same as thinking that false/malicious accusations are as odious as the actual act, if not more so. Those are two separate statements. Do you stand by both of them, or just the first one?

TVM.

Twice in six months I have had to act as advocate for someone dealing with police misogyny. Once in relation to rape, second in relation to DV. Both times, same victim who I suspect has PD. I guess the police officer interviewing picked up on this too but without knowing the background of the victim, hasn't understood the complex social reasons or even considered that childhood abuse is also an issue. NO he just made a huge set of assumptions and preceded to tell her how it was going to be. Basically shut up and put up.

Misogynist police... well, I suppose we haven't had the 'm' word for few posts.

'prejudiced juries'?

Juries represent the people, the people form juries. If you are going to lock someone away you MUST be sure that they did it.

The legal system we have is as fair and just as it can be, what would you propose in its place?

Diplock courts?

I just want to be clear the 95% refers to reported rapes. Most don't end up in court. When multiplied by the huge number of unreported rapes, the number of men raping with impunity is mind-bogglingly high.

It could be based on accepted figures that 9 out of 10 rapes go unreported.

Even more so - the habit of 'no criming' rape by the police, negligence and sabotage of rape-kits, a whole host of misogynist police cock-ups, along with victim-blaming and prejudiced juries amongst other things