Guardian article on sex workers and disabled people

I am a woman. Why is this debate about men and their sexual needs? Again, I suspect there is more going on here than concern for sex workers. There seems to be a visceral distaste for disabled men being able to ejaculate.

Sex is not just about ejaculation. It is about touching, feeling the warmth of another human being.

It might not be great having to pay for it, but it is better than nothing. And noting is all a lot of disabled people have.

I am not sure what an 'invisible disability' is butit tends to be the visible disabilities that are more relevant here as most people respond sexually to visual stimuli.

Nice tabard I just don't understand your comment. I am not talking about anyone's 'right' to anything. I am simply disturbed by the attitudes of some on this thread which to me at any rate appear to be disgust towards disabled men in particular.

Hmm... I don't think disabled people paying for sex should be made illegal. But I find the transactional nature of the sort of scenario in the Guardian quite unpleasant. Essentially it is not about mutual desire/attraction/warmth... it's about paying to ejaculate over someone.

What I find hardest to understand about men who use prostitutes is how they can be happy to have sex on someone who doesn't fancy them and is only doing it for the money. And really that applies to disabled people just as much as to men who can't find consensual sex because they are physically unattractive/very shy/have personality problems or whatever.

So actually it's just all about men being able to access sex with women who would not consider them under normal circumstances.

So far so utterly typical.

So now it's not just a right to sex, but a right to sex with someone who is not disabled? What on earth? So if a person who is not disabled doesn't want to have sex with a disabled person that is wrong? But you can't proscribe sexual attraction. Men get pissed off when women who are much better looking than them don't fancy them. The women aren't wrong for wanting to have sex with people they are attracted to. Buying consent from someone who does not want you is simply grim.

Incidentally, my first sexual experience was with a fellow disabled teen, in hospital. It was great

The thread i mentioned.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1700729-Should-I-look-elsewhere-for-sex

Xenia there are men who are asexual too. Just throwing that in there.

The people who are saying that disabled people have a right to sex.
Would you say the same about a carer whose partner has become disabled and can no longer have sex.
Because i seem to remember a thread on the Relationships board a little while ago where a female carer was asking about this.

I do not have problems with people paying. Half the husbands on mumsnet pay in one way or another to keep a housewife for sex and cleaning services. There are commercial transactions linked to sex even in many marriages and indeed plenty of usually men pay (a divorce settlement) go get free of an asexual wife so they can find one who is more sexual. Money and sex go together in all kinds of scenarios.

The very ugly old short fat man who is worth £100m will never be short of sexual partners because he is in effect paying even if he's just letting her live in his house and buying her a few shoes. Take the £100m away and he may find it rather hard to get any sex. Ditto the 30 stone woman with no hair and no disabilities.

So I do not see why people cannot pay if they need to, although I would not want in times of hardship tax payer money to go on it.

Spero my husband has an invisible disability.

Leithlurker - yes I would be very interested in research or at least more openess and people being prepared to talk about it. At the moment I fear that any discussion is clouded by general distaste at idea of disabled people 'doing it' or being helped in anyway.

But if the only way for some disabled people to have sex is via a commercial transaction, why this horror and disgust IF the transaction can be regulated to be as sure as we can be that the men or women working in this field are safe from explotation, trafficking etc.

I am uncomfortable with this notion that adults cannot consent to sell sex - it seems unnecessarily paternatlistic and my fear is that it does mask a hidden shock and disgust at the thought of disabled people being sexual beings.

The only way I could guarranttee an active sex life is to visit various fetish web sites or pay for it. I am certainly not having sex with someone who values me only for my disability and I am not keen on paying!

But I am troubled by the very strong emotions this subject seems to arose. It is important for able bodied people who are expressing an opinion on whether or not disabled people should have a sex life to be honest with themselves about what they know and understand of life with disabilities.

For the vast majority of my friends I am the ONLY person with a disability that they have regular social contact with. I would be VERY surprised to learn that any of them had had sex with a disabled person. I am tired of well meaning comments such as 'you are so pretty! I am sure your disability isn't an issue'.

It most certainly is. And I can quite understand why. Disability is not 'sexy', I am not going to shriek at the able bodied for not wanting to wine and dine someone who is disabled. Being perfectly blunt, neither would I. If I met someone lovely, kind and funny hopefully I would look beyond the disability, but those kinds of relationships take time and trouble to build up and most people just can't be bothered.

So I am really troubled by the contemptuous and outright dismissal of any attempts to think of a solution for the disabled. From the tone of some of these posts we are expected to just shut up and go away, we don't have any 'right' to the kind of expressions of sexuality that the able bodied take for granted.

Seriously, check your privilege.

I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear above. I am uncomfortable with a commercial transaction. My discomfort isn't around people with disabilities having sex.

Spero I am sorry you have had the experiences that you have had, I fear the number of people who are disable and who have a sexual aspect to their life without paying for it, or without having to fulfil someone elses fantasy about "gimp" sex, is low compared to the total number of people with impairments. It would be interesting to see the gender breakdown between male and female disabled people to see if more women or men with disabilities have a regular sex life.

I will now read the articles, I have posted quickly and in anger.

I don't know the 'status' of most of you posting.

But may I just say, as a disabled woman who has time and time again been shown with absolute and horrible clarity just how a lot of able bodied people perceive me, to have any able bodied person pontificating on my experience is absolutely enraging.

For anyone who thinks that there is a level sexual playing field for the disabled, open your eyes and see the world as it, not through the lense of your liberal sensitivities.

If anyone wants to volunteer to provide sexual gratification to the disabled, bloody good on them. I am less comfortable with commercial transactions because that does open door to exploitation.

A sex life may not be a 'right" but for many people it is an important and valuable part of being alive.

I would just like to know if the people so annoyed by the 'myth' that disabled people are considered 'unfuckable' are disabled themselves?

I am physically disabled and can tell you very clearly that it is not a 'myth'. It is clear to me how a large number of abled bodied people regard the disabled.

The person wanting sexual gratification can of course do what they like with their own body.

Not always.

I meant that "can of course do" in terms of a person's rights, not in terms of their physical ability to carry out their wishes. Perhaps it was clumsily phrased, sorry about that. But I would have thought in the context of this discussion that my meaning would have been clear.

Tabard I would have hoped that someone with a disability would be able to understand the idea that what ever the impairment or level of difficulty Those who're the most effected by the views of others are the ones with the most sensitivity towards their own impairment. Whilst you have no problem with your views, other impaired women and men would find it belittles them and denies them the right to speak about a need or desire to engage in a part of every day human life that is being denied to them through people saying "you do not have a right to sex"

Exactly sash and always, the articles should anyone read them cover exactly the complexities involved, not least by the FACT that time and again in surveys of disabled people and able bodied people, a high number of able bodied people would never go on a date never mind have sex with someone with a disability.

More research is being done, both (I think) the articles are written by academics doing further work, part of the problem has been probably always will be, the inability of parents of adults with the whole range of impairements to see their children as adults with all the needs and desires that adults have. This stops the adult children from being able to express or do anything about their sexuality, particularly for women, and for LGBT people.

Sassh, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I know Treloar have quite explicit policies about these things, and the role of carers/ support workers.

'Prostitution is a bad thing' is nowhere near nuanced enough to deal with sexuality and disability. However much you want it to be so.

I have not read the articles, I just want to throw into the mix that in Holland there are volunteers who have sex with disabled people, there it is seen as a human right.

the person wanting sexual gratification can of course do what they like with their own body

Not always.

Just to throw into the mix, and I will come back later, read the articles and have a think but what about a person who wants to use a sex toy but who cannot get it 'in place' by themselves. Would it be OK for someone to do that?

I basically mean placing a vibrator where it needs to be and then leaving the room. Is that different to lifting someone on to the toilet?

Lots of v interesting stuff looked at by Treloar. how to facilitate consensual relationships for young people with severe disabilities etc, who may not be physically able to position themselves for a peck on the cheek, let alone any other sort of intimacy - young people who are aware of peer group behaviour/ their own hormone surges/ body changes etc. how to evaluate whether both parties are freely consenting etc.

V complex.

Not about buying and selling though. Even without the cash changing hands, most folk recoil in horror about the idea of people with severe physical disabilities having a sexual identity. It makes discussing the subject merely in terms of prostitution almost impossible.

In reality, the only person I have ever heard on this subject was a woman with a learning disabled 18yo dd. (I've never heard anyone seam about men's rights in this arena - must be the circles I move in...) she even admitted herself that whilst she wanted for her dd to enjoy a sexual relationship, she struggled with the societal view that disabled people shouldn't be allowed to do that sort of thing, moves towards compulsory sterilisation, medical interventions to prevent puberty and growth in order to make personal care/ lifting easier compared to human rights of the individual etc.

None of this is really pertinent for nt types, so to attempt to draw exact parallels to bolster arguments against prostitution is a bit simplistic.

I'm entirely anti- prostitution, if it matters. I suppose I should read the articles now.

Scratch "sex is not a right". That misses the point, really, because the person wanting sexual gratification can of course do what they like with their own body and / or with any object that floats their boat.

But access to other people's bodies is not a right.

Well said, NiceTabard.

Leithlurker - "The right is not about sex it is about being human, having sex is part of being human." Hmm. Another part of being human, surely, should be recognising the humanity of others?

And therefore not buying them as things to use for your own pleasure?

Sex is not a right. For any of us, disabled or not.

the idea that disabled people are eminently unfuckable is also rampantly patriarchal.

I have no problem with my views

There is no right to sex. There is no human right to sex. I find it scary that anyone, anywhere maintains that.

I am disabled, BTW. Does that help? Is my opinion that sex is not a right, and that many many people live their lives without sex, people of all sorts of ages, sexualities, levels of disability can get by perfectly fine without paying for sex...

The idea that if you don't have a sex life there is something wrong is rampantly patriarchal.

your idea that everyone has a right to express their sexual urges with a real life person who meets their specifications makes me ill, frankly.