Women have their little careers till they have babies. Then they do as little as possible, preferably not working at all after that

yes blue, of course. ta for now

But you are happy to call me a bad role model. Is my dp one too? Our children have no hope at all!!!!!!!!!!

Seeker, many posters including myself have advocated more men doing childcare as a way of advancing women in the workplace post-children. Certainly more SAHDs is the way forward.

bless you scottish. you seem to be drunk again confused as to what the words debate or even conversation mean. I won't patronize you by explaining and will give a little nudge in the direction of a dictionary. But here is a hint, they dont mean incoherently ranting at anyone who "does it wrong " with no information or facts to back it up whilst ignoring what the other party has to say.

It's also interesting that nobody seems to be suggesting that men should automatically give up work and become sAHFs in order to provide a role model for their sons........

Satsuki, feel free to opt out. I don't take it personally if someone says strangers are raising my children but I will weigh in with my view as to why they are deluded. Debate should not get people upset but if you cannot take the heat, best to stay out of the kitchen. Of course, feel free to participate as well. Not my call.

Oddly, I do work, in a self employed capacity, but find myself playing it down big time ........

I'm yet to work out why - but clearly I have ishooos ...

blueshoes

You are not alone in wanting those things for your daughter, I find it strange to believe she will only be able to achieve these things by you being employed.
My dc are already earning more than min wage, (those of working age), they are contributing to society both in terms of tax and support in the community. I'm not sure what more than happy you refer to, but leave it with you.

I always thought that feminism was about being in a position to exercise choice in all aspects of your life. I thought wow, yes thats what it means and I'm so lucky to have those choices.
I am then told by somebody who considers themselves to be a feminist that my choices mean I am a housewife, a term I know from history which I believe really belongs in the patriarchal archive. With women belittling each others choices and continuing this 1950's stereotype and terminology, I don't really see any improvement. I don't think we need to look at men for continuing a patriarchal society, I believe its just as much the words and behaviour of women.

Look satsuki,you're not paxman you dont get to tell people how to post or to moderate self
I most certainly responded to you,1930, I won't be rebuked by you in that manner
So we need to not concur, I will continue to post.your pov is most welcome too

very good and very interesting the way you didn't respond to any of my post Scottish. keep on being "robust". I'm going to ignore this thread now, as I don't see any discussion, just 2 or 3posters being shitty to every one else in a way that certainly looks life defensiveness or plain old shittyness just for the sake of it. it's a bit sad tbh, if you wer really that happy with your situation I don't think you would be so bitter.

there is no bunfight to be had, because some people stay home and look after their kids in the day. And some people go out in the day and pay someone else to look after them. It's all the fucking same in the end. I prefer to do it my way. so I do. it doesn't make me angry or upset that you don't, it only seems to be you and blue who have taken issue with my life style.

it does upset me that someone will read this and think this is feminism though and close the door on the FWR section so to speak.

You know fine well that when you say "housewife" you intend it to be disparaging- in fact practically everything you say is disparaging of SAHM.

We need to not occur then,I find neither terms objectionable.clearly you do
I don't get stuck on want to be there for kids,staff are main carer comments

I do think this is significant stuff. As a mainstay of why aren't women represented at work after babies? Why do men not do bulk childcare?

Because some women don't return, and that creates a societal expectation

The ouch factor is fine. Any discussion about how we best care for our children is bound to. But as I said, I object very strongly to being dismissed as a "housewife" who "watches my children". Maybe think a little before you are quite so condemning?

As an aside why do we diminish women strudent opinion and duscussion as bunfight

it's so dismissive,women have strong opinions,and it's a bunfight?this is significant ideological stuff,and the day to day choices we have all variously made

Im more than happy to discuss and enjoy other women opinion,I am in no way defensive at any other woman opinion.in fact I'm pretty damn interested

Let's get on with robust discussion,it has been well articulated,it has been interesting,I don't think it's a bunfight

People with contrary opinion dont need narky rebuke satsuki,nor is anyone defensive

It is strident,it is heated,thats the point on a discussion topic.I'm more than willing to debate this with posters.yes thread will tread into touchy topics, it will have ouch factor. We are all adults, I Expect people if articulating strongly held opinion will give,and will get

Basically been told to shut up and stop being defensive doesn't cut it. I don't tolerate it from men,I won't tolerate it from woman. It simply isn't an appropriate response

I am just not prepared to be told that I am a bad role model for my daughter, or that I am limiting her choices because, after a 16 year high flying career I chose to stop working to look after her. Or that I would have been a better role model if I had taken a job stacking shelves in Sainsbury's, rather than making it very clear to her that her father and I are a a partnership, we discussed at length how we wanted out family to work, and that I, frankly, pulled rank over him to get the better side of the deal.

Why do these debate always turn into WOHM vs SAHM bunfights? Surely it's best for kids to have both parents sharing the childcare and work. That way they benefit from two (hopefully complementary) methods of parenting but also see two good role models. FWIW I think being a role model by working out of the house is only partly about earning a wage to contribute to the household, it is also about letting children know that their parents have a life beyond being a parent, that they are not the centre of the world. Obviously that could partly be demonstrated by a parent doing a lot of voluntary work (interestingly the only SAHD I know does masses of voluntary work, unlike any of the SAHMs) as well as paid work.

Satsuki: "Now stop being so defensive and listen."

This is interesting. I was just exchanging and where necessary, challenging, ideas and entrenched belief systems. I was stating my viewpoint, not being defensive. Sorry if this debate has affected you more than it merits.

This may be irrelevant for you and others on this thread, not that you will change what you are doing any way, but it will certainly inform my dd's choices. I aspire for her to be more than just happy, to do more than minimum wage jobs and to participate in society beyond her immediate family. Of course childcare has value but women can aspire to so much more with a bit of planning and judicious advice. Why should men (patriarchy?) bag all the fun and power.

If some women are not so busy making men's lives childcare free, perhaps men will see the need to fill the breech and realise what a valuable activity it is. Why should men do childcare unless they had to? The best way to get to grimbletart's utopia of the "day when a high proportion of SAHP are dads rather than mums, then the 'value' put on SAHPs will mysteriously rocket" is in fact for women to ration/boycott childcare i.e. go out to work.

We want the same things, just have different views of how to get there.

sigh.

It's interesting that as far as I can see the only people on here attacking other women's choices are a few WOHMs - very odd.

Thanks chockspread, enjoying your posts too!

We all do what we do for the best of reasons at the time.
yes to that grimble

But re the patriarchy and how it marches on in the fact of all our efforts to put it in the box it should belong in.....I would bet a considerable mount of money that if ever a day comes when a high proportion of SAHP are dads rather than mums, then the 'value' put on SAHPs will mysteriously rocket.

and big old yes to that too

fact = face (whoops)

Can't bear these threads that dissolve into bunfights over SAHM and WOHM. Feminists being utterly unsupportive of each other .

We all do what we do for the best of reasons at the time.

But re the patriarchy and how it marches on in the fact of all our efforts to put it in the box it should belong in.....I would bet a considerable amount of money that if ever a day comes when a high proportion of SAHP are dads rather than mums, then the 'value' put on SAHPs will mysteriously rocket.

and great post SatsukiKusukabe