Women have their little careers till they have babies. Then they do as little as possible, preferably not working at all after that

Maybe WOHMs are more likely to complain about tiredness or lack of time or missing assemblies or how much child care costs, and people respond by saying "well, you did choose go out to work" or some variation thereon, which they hear as more critical than it's intended to be?

Not sure I recognise what you're talking about - I know plenty of SAHDs and dads who work part time.

Most couples I know who haven't had children, ie they're beyond child-bearing age - have either gone part-time (one or both of them), or are self-employed and take looong holidays, or in one case took very early retirement (aged 50 in my neighbour's case).

But no one judges them as they haven't had children.

What Satsuki said :)

I would love it if we could split the responsibility for earning and childcare between me and DH and he would too.
But he earns considerably more than me - even though I have a higher level of education- so it has to be him who goes to work unless I went too but then we would have to pay for childcare and probably wouldn't be much better off financially anyway.

Yes, but that's because you are (or were at the time) a sahm. So you aren't going to get abuse directed at wohm. As far as I can tell from the stuff I read (and MN bun fights threads) it seems pretty equal, (Im a sahm). certain people can be quite vocal though against sahp, cough cough xenia

What SatsukiKusukabe said, definitely.

Perhaps we all tend to hear criticism more than people agreeing with us, for our own reasons of guilt/sensitivity/defensiveness! It may well be, seeker, that I tend to remember more the comments criticising my choice to work full-time, then criticisms I may have overheard (or shamefully might even have said myself without realising how they could be taken ) of people who choose to work outside the home part-time or stay at home...

Yes, SatsukiKusukabe, that is the crux of it.

In my experience, SaHMs are judged far more harshly that WOHMs. I think my first child was less than a year old when I was first told I was a bad role model for her. And there's always the "oh, I do wish I could stay at home with mine too, but I'm afraid I would miss the mental stimulation too much" brigade. And the "Nursery is so important for children- they need to develop independence or they will struggle at school" group. not forgetting "Your poor DP- working all hours for you all- he is good, isn't he? When are you going to help out?"

But as somebody said earlier - a mother's place is in the wrong.

I think it's that women are "allowed" to say they couldn't be away from their children. Men still aren't. I think that's as big an issue as women being expected to be sahm. Wouldn't it be ideal if no one assumed about anyone else?

I heard a great quote (that I can't qute remember) but it basically said feminism isn't just abut women getting in to "men's" domains and judging them by how good they are at "male" things, but getting men in to "women's" roles and judging them by the same standards.

Women are so often proud of making it in overwhelmingly male environments and jobs but how many men say I am the king of play group? Or are actually proud to be sahd? Or even think being a sahd is a respectable life style choice?

I think that's very true NumTumMum, few people suggest that fathers will be missing interaction with their children so much they would want go part-time, or that their children are suffering from seeing less of them. I don't want to get into a 'rights or wrongs' of working, staying at home etc. because there is not such thing - each family to their own - but I agree that a lot of people make assumptions that it is women who should be making these choices, while men just carry on working regardless.

But doesn't this illustrate the point? The fact that it is women who can't bear to be apart from their children? Who says that we are more attached than their fathers?

I think for a lot of people it would break their heart to be away from their children that much, so part time or sah are the options that make them happy.

Perhaps it's hard for these people to understand choosing to work ft, as it's such an irrational, emotional subject for many. I think that's where the judgement + assumptions come from.

It is infuriating. My MIL could not understand why I went back to work after DD full time. I just needed to. Yes, financially but also I needed the challenge and the social interaction. But she never for a moment considered that maybe my xh should reduce his hours or give up work even though I earned twice what he did. But by accepting this and getting on with it, as I am sure most of us all do - simply because we are pragmatic and have to - we are perpetuating it. What would happen if we simply refused to sort the childcare? Would any of us risk it?

I find it infuriating that 'because I like it and I'm good at it' isn't apparently sufficient justification for a woman (not a man) with children to work. Whenever you see this issue discussed in the media, it's in terms of needing two salaries to live. So reductive. And I work educating girls!

its the underlying assumption that that is the norm that annoys me

I'm totally with you here StealthPolarBear. I went back to work full-time after my maternity leave with DC1, and now after chopping and changing for a while after DC2, I am working full-time again and DP is SAHD. It is, frankly, unbelievable the kind of comments we get.

DP is starting to look for work again so that he will be working when DC1 starts school this autumn, and immediately the assumption is that I'll be changing to go part-time. There is never any thought that he might look for a part-time job. It drives me mad. The worst culprits are MIL and SIL, but quite a few of my friends come out with funny lines sometimes too, which makes me sad. I find myself worrying that they think we're an awful family and are messing things up. I got quite tetchy the other evening when someone said "It must be so sad for you working full-time and never seeing the children." A) I do see them and B) no one has ever said that to DP!

Grrrrrrrr

Me and my husband haven't been out on our own for five and half years, that's how much leisure time we get. God it makes me so angry how your own family can even judge you, whatever you have to do (or don't) Sorry i have gone on. I am new to not working as I only gave up at the end of last year after my mental health deteriorating month after month after month, and I suppose I feel guilty and a bit defensive, even though at the moment there is not much I can do about it (and I know I have made the best decision for me and my dd, so that's all that is important to me, at this time)

tbh I get the opposite and I get referred to as a 'lady of leisure' by mine and dh's family as it has always been more normal to work (working class my love)

When I worked part time, it was my 'little job' as well

My cousin and his wife, who have no children, both left their fairly high-powered careers a fee years ago
They now work for themselves, and take as much work as they need to fund the travel and other stuff that they do the rest of the time. It seems to net out at about 50% working - but more like month on, month off than 2.5 days a week. I think it's a great arrangement and one that will become more and more common as we all live longer and work longer.

I know a couple in their late 40s without children who do this.
I think that the real break through will come when men (married and single), single women and childless couples can take time off or work part time if they want to. I feel that I was the real lucky one to have time with my children and to do the 101 interesting things that I wanted to do. If I didn't have children I would still have loved to have got off the treadmill of paid employment.
Way back when I was at school we were told that jobs in the future would give us far more leisure time and the difficulty would be to find ways to use it. What a shame that the opposite has happened.

I see where you're coming from.

I'm a SAHM of school aged children (various reasons including the fact that DH travels lots, works long hours and I like it ). You should hear some of the stuff I get . You just can't win...any way you do it is always going to be a fail in someone's eyes. Ignore/ let it go and just be happy is the best approach I think...

I do understand what you are saying but it does come across as rather crass to women who have eventually had to give up work, to care in my case. Yes, my husband always earned more though, it seemed the obvious choice financially, but there are other reasons, such as dignity and advocacy for my daughter, but it's a complex issue and one that is often overlooked and no-one really cares because having a severely disabled child puts you into an extremely small minority that not many people would understand anyway, male or female