Facebook feminist groups and LGBT

Tricky.

The feminism with which I'm familiar acknowledges that the gendered identity (even the identity) with which the vast majority of people are born, is ... well, not so much 'wrong' as unhelpful, painful and limiting. To say it's 'wrong' is to imply there's a 'right' identity ... is there? If there were, that would mean sacrificing the needs of many people to the needs of the few, and that will never seen right to me.

I'm not qualified enough to speculate on womanism but I look forward to someone else explaining?

I understand that in an ideal society gender wouldn't matter/exist, and it's fine to work towards that, but I think ignoring that some people genuinely feel that their birth identity is wrong, as feminism often does, is not the way to get there. Not that feminists have to focus on other oppressed groups' issues, just acknowledge them. If everyone felt feminism was good at that, things like womanism wouldn't exist.

I am aware it must be such a niche meaning. It is just the one I've come across time and again.

I certainly include in that people who feel sometimes male and sometimes female, of course - that goes without saying.

I think the crux of the issue is that some of these people think that gender is an oppressive category we should get rid of. Others wish to keep it, and of course it is true that as a category gender gives some people a huge amount of power.

I've never before seen gender queer to mean 'unfeminine woman' or 'unmasculine man'. Some of the people I know of who identify as gender queer feel that sometimes they are male, sometimes female, however that feels to them (and not in a 'today I'm male because I'm playing football' kind of way). Sort of a part-time transgender thing.

Don't worry, thanks for explaining it LRD.

Well, I don't know if this is the normal understanding or if it's specific to people I know - because I know there's a lot of variation in how people use the term 'queer' and it might be this is the same.

In academic contexts, people talk about 'queering' gender to mean, an activity or image that transgresses society's expectations of male or female behavior. So, a woman dresses up as a knight and goes to war might be genderqueer, but a story that describes an army of woman (say, modern-day Amazons) is a story that's 'queering' gender ... it's providing a shocking and transgressive example of people acting against the gender norm that expects men to be the army and woman to be peaceful.

This seems to get extended, so I've seen people refer to 'queering' a situation when they are really only talking about transgression and not gender. Effectively they use 'queering' as a metaphor, and 'gender' as a metonym for any rigid social structure. So, a peasant who becomes king might be understood in terms of the 'queering' of social stuctures.

Gender 'queering' might also refer to sexuality in the sense I'm personally more used to, so a man who is attracted to another man might be described in the context of gender queer behaviour.

I really don't like this type of academia. I think it's disrespectful to actual gay people to use homosexuality as an analogy, and I think that if you are going to talk about gender, you need to be very careful not to assume 'transgression' is daring and innovative, when as people have said on this thread, transgression only reinforces the idea that there's a binary to transgress.

In a non-academic context I've seen people say that practicallyanyone who is not a feminine (and non-feminist) woman or a masculine (and non-feminist-friendly man) is 'gender queer'. I've also seen it used to refer to a much smaller subsection of people who really rage against gender sterotypes.

I don't really see what it has to offer as an idea, that the idea of getting rid of gender as a concept doesn't. I think it is only solidarity with the relatively powerful and/or prominent groups of gay men and trans people. Obviously that solidarity could be a good thing but when it's the only thing I can see to recommend this term and this concept, I get suspicious.

Whew, sorry, far too long a post.

not much to add, but agree with most of you. I have noticed in a girls guide that cis-gender is becoming a common term, which I find strange on a page devoted to saying you aren't a slave to your gender. But I think it's like pretzel said, women are supposed to fight for other people's rights.

The concept of genderqueer (as described by urbandictionary) sounds like the opposite of feminism.
If a girl likes cars and has other typical boyish interests, does that mean she isn't a girl but genderqueer? [buconfused][busad]

LRD what is queering gender?

Cross-posted with beach, but I agree.

I really dislike the idea that some people (I'm sure they're not typical, so I'm not generalizing from them) have, that 'queering' gender is somehow excitingly transgressive, something you deserve to be praised for and should aspire to.

To be fair (ish), I think 'genderqueer' comes from people wanting a label that unites a wide spectrum of marginalized folks. So you have people who identify as 'queer' because they're gay, bi or lesbian, and (I think) some people who cross-dress identify as 'queer' too. And I think 'genderqueer' is a way to find a term that acknowledges that all sorts of people transgress the gender roles society expects of them.

I can believe that to call all of those things 'queer' could be a powerful unifying factor. I've read a fair bit of academic scholarship in history and lit that uses 'queer' to mean simply 'transgressing society's norms'.

I don't personally find any of this helpful to me, and I have reservations with a lot of it, but I think it's that attempt to find common ground that's behind a lot of this.

Problem with common ground is it tends to erase the differences between minorities, and it seems as if women are always going to be in the erased group.

(That was in answer to deadlift)

Thing about genderqueerism is that much of it presents as being subversive and 'post-sexism' when in fact it shores up the patriarchal concept of gender (as critiqued by radical feminist analysis. There is a deep underlying conservatism and misogyny (internalized or otherwise) to a movement that is founded on notions of gender (queered or otherwise).

I find the genderqueer label quite sad. Doesn't it just mean you're not Barbie or Ken? I agree with Pretzel - isn't that almost everyone?

That's cos radical feminism is well known for having a well honed bullshit detector.

Urbandictionary.com -

Genderqueer is most commonly used to describe a person who feels that his/her gender identity does not fit into the socially constructed "norms" associated with his/her biological sex.
Genderqueer is an identity that falls anywhere between man/boy/male and woman/girl/female on the spectrum of gender identities.
Mary doesn't feel that s/he fits the mold of any one particular gender; therefore, Mary identifies as genderqueer."

Why do they have to invent such weird words for simply being normal and not a stereotype?

What is 'genderqueer'? Is it when you don't act and look the way the sex you belong to should, according to gender roles? Because that's most people isn't it.

Sadly I think it probably would come as a shock to the majority of the members of my university's feminist society that some people would find the idea of being 'genderqueer' unflattering. I do think that it's just another way of othering women- if you're a masculine women they won't see you as a masculine women but a genderqueer person. Because a woman couldn't possibly want to be like that, they must not really be a woman.

I think even mentioning the words 'radical feminism' would probably not go down very well and I would imagine that if anyone actually admitted they agreed with some aspects of radical feminism they probably wouldn't get a very warm reception.

dead - whew, I'm so glad you said that, I have got this same impression from women I know but had an uncomfortable feeling I didn't want to report their views and have everyone think 'nah, never seen that', and I'd feel I'd misrepresented something.

I think it makes a lot of sense though, doesn't it, in that gender queer, or gay men's politics, can be quite different from issues that affect both lesbians and straight women (not always, obv., but sometimes).

I hate the idea that all the different groups have to be competing for focus and energy. The fact we are competing is the fault of the patriarchy, which gives a disproportionate amount of screentime to straight, white, rich, Western (etc. etc.) men. But despite that I do feel irritated when women get silenced for wanting to talk about feminism even in a feminist group (or, erm, even on FWR which, let us all remember from the ever-repeated gospel according to SM, is not a space for feminist-friendly discussion but for constant derailing).

It probably doesn't need saying, but the concept of being 'genderqueer' is surely just as incompatible with radical feminism as the idea of a gender identity, so it shouldn't come as a shock to feminist societies that some women won't find it a flattering, inclusive term (which is how I think it's often intended).

No, Annie. I thought feminism = women's rights. Isn't it? (Like the name of this board)

Disclaimer:Of course women can belong to other oppressed groups too, as well as care about other's issues.

AnnieLobeseder - I have encountered this too.

I do think it is increasingly difficult for feminism to remain woman centric. Of course huge parts of feminist culture/analysis/writings have lesbian roots. But that is something rather different to queer theory/LGBT.

Some of the lesbian feminists I know feel they have very little to do with LGBT politics which are very focused on, well, men (and/or genderqueering).

I think it is a combination of society at large's resistance to feminism and women doing anything for themselves plus the appeal of 'queerness' to young people. Of course there are lots of interesting and important issues in there but there is no reason for feminism to be swallowed up by them. And I don't think feminists should feel the need to take on the genderqueer battle saying as many of us reject gender entirely as a vehicle for the oppression of women....

I agree entirely with you. I really don't understand why it's like this. It seems like although they are a tiny majority they shout the loudest and so they are discussed the most. I'm not sure if it's the same at other universities but it's definately an issue here. It does detract from focussing on women's issues with I agree should surely get more focus.

There does seem a trend at my university to focus on gay and trans (although primarily trans) issues at the expense of women's issues

I find this very strange. No offense to trans people, but they are a tiny minority. Women are half the population - shouldn't our issues get the majority of the focus?

I'm a lesbian and a feminist and find that at my own university's feminist society most women would either identify as queer or sometimes as both lesbian and queer. Personally I don't like to use the term queer both because the term lesbian seems more accurate and queer feels a bit like you're trying really hard to be cool and also because if I use the term queer then people seem to automatically assume that I also want to use the term genderqueer, which I definately don't.

There does seem a trend at my university to focus on gay and trans (although primarily trans) issues at the expense of women's issues which is both frustrating and difficult to question without starting a riot. I think I'd agree with the idea that it's because it's seen as more acceptable for women to care about other causes but not themselves.

Wow, thanks for all the names of feminist groups on FB! I have now cluttered up my feed with them.