Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

So who went on a

118 replies

Leithlurker · 30/03/2013 19:18

Anti Bedroom Tax march and what one?

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 17:03

You think women can't disagree with women now? Confused

Why shouldn't chibi say what she thinks?

That link perfectly illustrates why we are better steering clear of all of this, IMO.

Leithlurker · 01/04/2013 16:56

Chibi, you realise that you just tarred thousands of women with that brush? In It is clear from the blog post that the issue is entirely tied up with the internal wrangling of the swp and Scottish politics, nothing to do with the anti bedroom tax.

"One Solidarity activist, Joyce Drummond, was telling the woman making the threats that it was good on her, and pointing out ex-SSP members she saw in the crowd as ?grasses?. Drummond was formerly best known for being Tommy Sheridan?s most virulent supporter, and for being caught out in Sheridan?s perjury trial as one of the group behind a motion calling for the minutes of a Scottish Socialist Party meeting (where Sheridan admitted that he had done the things which he later denied in court) to be ?destroyed? ? but now she?s best known to those who have seen the above video as ?that awful woman?.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 16:46

FWIW, leith, if you're wondering, here's just two of your posts that made it clear to me I would be put off any demonstration you took part in (or anyone with your views took part it). In the first you're discussing whether or not people's 'right' to a sex life trumps the rights of women not to be abused.

I am not saying that these views have never been put forward by people who say otherwise sensible things. I'm not in the least questioning your right, or anyone else's right, to hold these views.

But I did suggest that, perhaps, these views are one reason why you're not getting many feminists here saying they'd take part in your march.

No doubt these women go on other marches for other causes, and possibly a lot agree that the bedroom tax is wrong - but you can't be surprised that some feminists would want to distance themselves from anyone holding these kinds of views.

'The independent living movement although not explicitly talking about sex does actively work towards each person being able to make decisions about their own lives, so if they choose to pay for sex, buy drugs, be racist it is there choice.'

'And did you look at the links Franz sent and will you acknowledge that legitimate and fully independent organisations of women who have or still do work in the industry and who oppose criminalisation exist?

What would make everyone a nicer person would be to get sex workers off the street and either accepted or abolished.'

(I find this particularly unpleasant because the focus is on sex workers ... as usual ... and not the people who abuse them. It's the happy hooker myth, plus some disturbingly misogynistic language about 'abolishing' abused women, or getting them 'off the street' so we can all feel 'nicer').

chibi · 01/04/2013 16:40

yes IsBella that is the story i am thinking of. i have no interest whatsoever in making common cause with people who hate women and don't see them as people

what a crazy ass thread this is

LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 16:37

leith - I never said I was aware of these specific marches - I asked you for information, which you repeatedly failed to provide.

Why are you pretending I did claim to be aware of these marches?

Secondly, no, sadly, as you would know if you knew anything about feminism, crowds are not necessarily safe places for women. And yes, as a particular kind of feminist, I do expect not to demonstrate with pro-sex people. I don't care if only some of those demonstrators are pro-sex, and I certainly don't find it surprising. But I don't want to join forces with any of them.

Why does this surprise you? It is called 'having principles'. Do you not expect feminists to have principles? If so, why?

I judge your views from what you post on here. I have no wish to know more about you. Why should I? What have you done to suggest I would want to know more?

Nothing. You refuse to clarify or provide information - it's been asked for many times. Clearly, you don't actually care about this issue, you just want to have an argument about why you think feminists should sign up to a cause you like, without knowing anything about it. Well, sorry, no: I would prefer you to put your cards on the table before you start berating me for exercising my normal and typical right to have an opinion on what I do and don't choose to align myself with.

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld · 01/04/2013 16:10

IsBella that is a shocking article.

Must admit, when I saw this thread I just thought isn't this already being discussed in politics/elsewhere on MN.

Read through the thread and the aggression displayed by the op towards individual posters on here puts me off even answering the question.

Leithlurker · 01/04/2013 15:39

Your repeating the fault line of your argument LRD. First if you were aware of the marches you would have known who was organising them and you would know that it was "safe" Secondly in a crowd of 1000 people at a public demonstration you are certain that all of those people would share the same views on sex work, and therefore it would be a "safe" environment.

As I suspected you have no idea about what I am for, your assertion about me being "pro sex worker" is way off the mark and basically means you are working from a false set of assumptions, but hay never let a good prejudice get in the way of facts eh? If you want to try and find something I have said in my many posts that show I have promoted and agreed with prostitution, trafficking, or sexual abuse of women and children you go right ahead.

Now whats the word that describes when women dismiss men out of hand?

OP posts:
Leithlurker · 01/04/2013 15:28

Isabela: It was a faction within the SWP who brought shame on the whole march in Glasgow, for some reason probably lack of knowledge about the sap, they were allowed to steward the event. Tommy Sheridan was in effect booted of the organising committee of the March in Glasgow when it was discovered that he is a very divisive figure on the left.

The organisers of the March to some extent are not involved and do not support the sap, any of the internal factions, or in fact share any political goals that the sap have. They are concerned with the effect on people across the country.

Similar incidents did not happen or so I understand at any of the other Marches, even ones with SWP stewards. It is always unacceptable to behave like this, even more so when an internal fight amongst a small political cadre detracts from the main message.

OP posts:
IsBella · 01/04/2013 14:33

Here's an interesting article about feminists on a bedroom tax demo:

athousandflowers.net/2013/03/31/this-is-a-tax-demo-why-dont-you-go-back-to-your-rape-demo/

FasterStronger · 01/04/2013 13:42

no I haven't been on a march regarding the change in housing benefit policy.

it is not something i disagree with & i don't see it as a feminist issue.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 13:26

Btw, of course my fears about identity are real - some people don't want to go to a real-life meet up until they know it is safe. This is basic internet safety.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 13:25

I go on some marches, and those I go on, I know quite a bit about.

I'm not sure it's a 'fact' I know nothing about them.

I would have been interested to know more about this particular march, but wouldn't want to attend a march promoted by pro-sex-worker types.

That's my right. Plenty of others wouldn't feel the same as me.

My indentity isn't threatened by that - plenty of feminists are anti sex-work, plenty are pro. All I did was to suggest to you that this might be a reason why people didn't want to go on your march.

Why should I 'defend' anything?

You seem outraged at the idea that women are not just there to support your own cherry-picked causes. Well, it may be news to you, but some women actually have their own principles and their own causes.

If you had bothered to write a thread that wasn't all about berating other people for failing to be interested in cryptic OPs, I would have more time for you. As it is, I think this thread is purely stirring.

Leithlurker · 01/04/2013 13:21

The point of the thread was to ask who went on Marches, marches organised and run by trade unions, anti cuts groups, faith groups, community groups, all kinds of people. The fact that you know nothing about the Marches means you can say you would have issues about identity, if you had been aware you would know how silly that sounds, so again my point in starting the thread about who knew and went was to speak to those like a couple of the posters here who do not think your fears about identity are real.

Neither were the many hundreds of women, a fair few I would imagine would identify themselves as feminists. In fact I know 6-7 who went and do identify themselves in that way. So LRD you defend yourself why is your identity at risk when so many other feminists disagree with you.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 13:17
Confused

Eh?

I don't like your views, so I don't want to go on the march. I would speculate other feminists may feel the same. And yes, sorry, but me feeling this way does make it so. I do feel disinclined to go.

I'm not attacking you, I'm saying why I don't want to go on a march. Of course I dislike your views on some things, and yes, that's precisely why I don't want to listen to you on other issues - because, to me, your views are tainted and I don't want to promote any of your issues.

You seem to think you've winkled out a shocking truth here, but I am admitting it quite freely and I am gobsmacked you think I shouldn't do that.

It cannot be news to you that, if you hold views that some feminists find offensive, those feminists will not want to march with you or meet up with you in RL. Why on earth should we?

Leithlurker · 01/04/2013 13:14

Think what you like LRD it does not make it so. aAgain feel free to report me and this thread.
I asked you how other feminist issues could be covered, I doubted I needed to say within the context of the subject, but apparently I do.

"Direct quote "Is there a conflict between this and, say, your stance on sex work that may have put feminists off associating with you?"

That seems to be a contradiction, but see here we go again twisting words, the truth is you do not like my views on one thing so you ignore me about other things. Did I come and start attacking you on this thread, no I did not you came hear to attack me. That says enough I think.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 13:13

And FWIW, yes, I agree with the poster at the start of the thread who raised concerns about identity.

I would not want to go to a real-life event if I were worried about being identified, and especially if I thought other attendees might not be legit. Sadly, on the internet, these are things we all have to worry about. Dismissing them suggests you are very naive, or you think women's safety is unimportant. I have to admit I suspect it is the former, but seriously - please think about the issue. For every person who's organizing a legit meet-up, there will be someone who is really, really not.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 13:12

Eh? Confused

I can't follow that sentence leith, does it have something missing?

What I said - just to explain again, though I have already said it clearly - your views on sex work make me disinclined to go on a march with you.

I'm terribly sorry if that's upsetting for you. But why it's a surprise is beyond me. I also wouldn't choose to go on a march to support the Tories - because I am not a Tory. I don't go leafletting for the BNP, because I am not a racist. I don't attend pro-life demos outside abortion clinics, because I am not pro-life and don't enjoy threatening women.

Do you get the picture?

In the same way, I wouldn't want to go on a march organized or promoted by people whose principles I disagree with.

I'm fine with you going on the march, and if you wanted to (which you clearly don't), I'd be fine with you explaining why you see this as being a feminist march.

But yes, to me, anyone who is pro-sex work has views I find questionable. Did you honestly not expect that?

elQuintoConyo · 01/04/2013 13:09

Yeesh, I'm glad I live abroad!

I'm a feminist, but not sure how feministy compared to you, OP.

This is turning into a very nasty thread - chocolate, anyone?

Leithlurker · 01/04/2013 13:07

So it's official then Sabrina and LRD as well as others are saying that since I have different views on sex work, which incidentally I challenge you to say what they are as I doubt you even know what views I hold.

My views on anything and everything else connected to feminism and women are questionable? Fine just wanted it made clear.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 13:04

Hmm. Yet you usually seem to think threads in this section are there for you to be supplied with material by others. Hmm

Isn't it deeply hypocritical to tell me to do my own research, then end by asking me to 'tell you' about other feminist issues?! Surely, given you posted in FWR, you should already know this stuff?

Frankly, I think you are wasting everyone's time by starting a thread where you just seem to want to have a go at other posters with snide comments. If you were really interested in the issue as you claim to be, you'd be happy to talk about it, instead of insisting people should already know and/or go and look in other sections.

I never said your views on any subject should bar you from associating with feminists (though it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world). That is a really self-centred reversal of what I said.

I said your views put me off associating with you.

Leithlurker · 01/04/2013 13:00

Do your own research, I am not here to supply you with material.

Not sure why you think my views on any subject should bar me from associating with feminists, unless you mean that those feminist on this board who hold different views from myself have been operating closed minds as to the value of any contribution that people who disagree with you make.

If you look at the links on this and other boards on mums net such as politics, you will see that I have been involved quiet closely in highlighting the marches.

As for the rest of your post, perhaps you can tell me how other feminist issues can be covered covered.

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 01/04/2013 12:59

Is there a conflict between this and, say, your stance on sex work that may have put feminists off associating with you?

That would be it for me.

Same goes for boney's post.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 01/04/2013 11:42

leith, what are you doing to publicize this event?

Have you yet explained how it fits in with a feminist agenda properly? Maybe you have but please run it by me again.

I would like to know which feminist groups have been approached and what their reactions were.

I would also like statistics for how many women have been affected and how you propose to make sure that other feminist issues are also covered at the same time.

Is there a conflict between this and, say, your stance on sex work that may have put feminists off associating with you?

I look forward to prompt, clear answers.

chibi · 01/04/2013 10:40

people knew about the cuts, they did not know about the marches. perhaps next time anti-cuts protesters can tell people that they are panning protests?

interestingly, i found out yesterday that at a Glasgow anti cuts protest there were swp stewards and supporters shouting horrible things at and kettling young women who objected to some swp rape apologist dude speaking.

it kind of puts me off making common cause with them tbh

Leithlurker · 01/04/2013 08:57

Why thank you Mandy for your view of my activities, and what others should or should not do. I suggest you report me and this thread. Although to be fair it is much easier to throw mud around.

Children: I am pleased you got something of value out of those pages.

As of this morning, womens lives, predominately working class, and exclusively working age women's lives will have been made much harder, in all respects. Seems from others who have posted on this thread that this change has gone unnoticed.

Perhaps in feminist meetings, the issue of joint action with Anti cuts protestors could be raised, or those on this board who have taken action with others might want to report back on their experiences?

OP posts: