sexual advances - the big question

One of my friends is really upset about a sexual assault that has just happened to her, by a stranger. She describes it as "low level" which I guess means "not actual rape". It happened so fast she barely had time to react.

Larry are you still there? Any words of advice for me and my friend? At what point should we have heartily bellowed "fuck off" and what actual fucking difference do you think it would have made?

I guess it is a crazy coincidence that we just happened to have been assaulted within hours of you explaining to us all that it doesn't happen very often and / or doesn't really matter (or whatever the fuck you were saying, as you don't want to clarify, just sort of generally minimise without coming out and being honest about your vile mealy mouthed position). How funny, such a once in a lifetime experience. OH NO IT IS NOT ONCE IN A LIFETIME IS IT

I am so fucking angry today I am sick to death of going about in the world with men treating me like a fucking toy. I am FORTY FUCKING ONE (not that it would be ok if I were 20)

I agree curry. I would very much like to have an honest conversation with a "groper" and explore their thought processes.

The thing is (I bring you this analysis fresh from the field, having experienced an insidious groping at a bar on Saturday from a man who laughed and made a joke of it when I physically removed his hands and arms from my body) - they often aren't "sexual advances" in the sense that the man wants you to say "Oh yes, what a good idea, let's go and have sex". So he is "in the clear" in the sense that he didn't want you anway! (he could loudly protest). No, maybe he didn't want to take you to a hotel, but he has already had what he wanted, which was to rub up against an unfamiliar female body and revel in the power of being able to do this and still regard himself as a nice person.

A sexual advance would be reasonable. they often look like this:
"do you want to go out with me?" (= person wants to have a relationship with you, or at least thinks he might)
"Do you want to come back to my hotel room?" (= person wants to have sex with you) (obviously if you do go back to the room you don't have to, but you might want to have sex too)

both of these are fine in that they both allow the space, formally at least, for "no thankyou".
And this is why the whole nasty gropey power thing is so horrible, is that they have just taken it, there is no space for rejection, the event is over and they got what they wanted, which is power, and the demonstration of power

So I don't think we should be talking about "sexual advances" because a sexual advance is a moment that the advancer is hoping to lead to further, consensual moments of sexual contact. This is just this - doesn't lead to anything - it's just a power grab

I am sorry that Pan and Hully's argument was brought back up here. Bad form. :(

I met a woman a while ago, in her 50s, who told me she had never met anyone who had been raped, or anyone who knew anyone who had been raped. Some people are truly blind to everything that hasn't affected them directly.

"Women? Upset by a hand on the knee? When I imagine a hand on my knee it doesn't disturb me. It's just a touch. Big babies. They're making it up."

There was a blog post linked a while back on this thread, about how women/girls are conditioned in society. I found it really interesting, because it is true. I have never found an acceptable way of "dealing" with unwanted advances on a night out- apart from "I have a boyfriend, he's that guy there, he won't like it if you grab my arse/make sexual advances/touch me without my consent".

I find it really difficult to say no to men, even over a medium like text when they are asking for something I'm not willing to give, especially if I've given it to them before. I don't think men understand how hard it is when you've said no for the second or third time, or given a fairly polite no, which can be just about read as a maybe, so they persist.

The one time I got physical with a man (he started grinding against me with an errection in a night club with litterally no introduction and I slapped him to get him to back off) he punched me in the face. The bouncers were uninterested and fortunately after that he left me alone. I am 5'4'' and weight less than 9 stone, the majority of men (the majority of people!) are going to be physically stronger than me, so I don't like getting into situations where things might get physical.

The other thing that annoys me is the assumption that flirting/talking = consent. I have never left a club with a stranger, I very much doubt I ever will. I'm happy, sometimes, to add guys on facebook/give them my number. That's not equal to consent. Neither is going on a date or agreeing to meet up, and I hate how some men view it that way.

Interestingly, I have been in a situation where the roles were slightly reversed- a much less sexually experienced guy (although older), less into me than I was into him, and I tried to be very careful with regards to sex, and only had it if he instigated it and seemed to be giving "enthusiastic consent". I know, obviously, someone has to instigate but I wish some of my male partners had given it some consideration.

With regards to reporting, I have never experienced anything worth reporting, but a friend was sexually assulted (as in sexual act performed on her whilst unconcious then she woke up) by a boyfriend, neither the police, nor the university they both attended were interested!

Oh, no, you're fine - I was just checking, I hate getting tone wrong on the net as it's so easy.

The whole petty rumour side of it is horrible, isn't it? Sorry to hear you fell foul of it. And of course you're angry - you bloody should be!

I have made a report of sexual harassment in the workplace,quite a few years ago. Without wishing to go into any detail,I had already left the workplace prior to making the report.
I am not sure I would have felt as able to make the report whilst remaining in the workplace.

That's really depressing, prom. I certainly don't blame women, either (I hope I didn't imply that).

I think, psychologically, it's very difficult to put yourself in what you know will probably be a confrontational situation when you've just been in that position, too - because your natural instinct is to want to shrink away, and that includes shrinking away from the confrontation.

Yep, women know - or assume - that the men will be valued more highly than them.

They're usually right.

Yes, I think that's an issue, prom.

Yes,LRD as in mediator capacity, though not immediatly with someone who has offended against me, as a man. fwiw

Can we get back to the subject?

I was wondering - has anyone successfully managed to get someone to admit they did make a sexual advance in these situations? I'm realizing I have never actually reported anything sexual that's happened. I can think of some I wish I had - but I didn't, mostly because they weren't 'serious enough'. I have argued quite a lot with men in a non-work setting, but that's all.

LRD - FFS it isn't me bringing it up. And yes I have reported this shit. Repeatedly. Lordy.

But Hully, this thread isn't the first, is it? Can we agree to avoid each other?
Yes we are grown ups, and this stuff is massively not grown up.

2 sick kids, excuse me if I don't hang around to follow you.

pan, she was on the thread days before you. She's not following anything.

And I really doubt anyone else wants to read this. It is so bloody tedious.