sexual advances - the big question

What Kritiq said.

I have oodles of experiences - too many to recall - as a student and a young woman travelling around, in pubs, on the street, on public transport, at work, where I have been subjected to obviously unwanted attention from men. Men who are not "typical nutters" either.

It really is an occupational hazard as a young woman - and as Kritiq says - men do not suffer it in the same way as women do. Hence Larry/Dazzlers easy dismissal of it.

It doesn't happen to me as much as it used to. I'm a mother of 3 now - I tend to drive to a lot of places, and am not out and about as much as I was when I was younger. But it still happens - when I'm out alone it seems to be open season for men to comment on me or somehow accost me.

It really is awful - awful that as women we just learn to live with it.

It isn't a choice of the situations we have been describing/arranged marriages/women only approaches. There is another way. Men respect women's boundaries.

You're being disengenuous.

Mooncup

I can see why people get frustrated but this is often because they fail to adequately read text that's been posted.

They then retort with some weird interpretation of what they think they've read.

I'm sorry but I'm not going round in circles explaining when you've made a clear error in interpretation. At the expense of sounding patronising a second time, please re-read and you will realise what you're saying is irrelevant.

SirEdmund,

How would relationships ever form without sexual advances? Do you want to limit relationships only to those mutually arranged through friends/family, where both parties know the other's intentions ahead of meeting one another? Or do you want to turn things around 180 degrees and make it only acceptable for a woman to make a sexual advance towards a man?

It is never going to fly. Have you never heard of groups of both sexes going "out on the pull" of an evening? Or two work colleagues dating? Someone has to ask the other one out to make it happen (AKA make a "sexual advance").

If you do not want to accept sexual advances, what would you like to replace them with?

Not happy with the use of the term "typical nutter," or suggesting that there is something distinct and highly spottable about men who "behave inappropriately" with women or people in general. It's as though they can be disregarded because they are not like "normal" men (quite apart from the ridiculous suggestion that it is the result of mental illness.)

Again, this is something that is an every day, lived experience for nearly ALL women - to be approached by men who believe they are within their rights to demand their attention and often become hostile when this is not given. It's also being approached by men who have the expressed purpose of embarrassing, upsetting and/or frightening women because they get a buzz out of it and that's more important to them than the negative impact on the woman or girl.

There is ample evidence in everything from the British Crime survey to academic research (look yourselves if you are genuinely interested,) to show that sexual harassment is predominately men against women. Because you are a man, you have the privilege of disregarding this, dismissing women's experiences as "assumptions" and just plain not giving a toss. Even if you would never engage in sexually harassing behaviour yourself, your dismissal of this is effectively collusion with those men who DO choose to behave in this way. Insisting it's "no big thang," gives them license to continue with your blessing.

Should sexual advances be accepted as a part of life, was the question.

You say yes. I say no.

SirEdmund,

We have addressed it directly if you read our posts. We have said that these people approach men and women. The statement "because she was there and a woman" is just an assumption. He may have done exactly the same were it a man.

I'm finding you quite patronising, Dazzler, with your comments like 'Do you understand the concept of humans as sociable animals?'

I've travelled alone and had interesting conversations with men I've sat next to on the train or whatever. Great. No one's talking about that here. I've also experienced many occasions when a man has come up to me, with that hot look in his eyes, moving a bit too close and trying to touch me or ask me personal questions. It's horrible and it is very much something men do to women/girls.

Comments such as 'These people impose upon everyone and it matters not whether you're male/female/old/young.' suggest that you have never experienced what I'm talking about - unsurprisingly, since you're a man - and should therefore try listening to people who have experienced it (among which group I expect every woman posting on this thread is numbered) rather than pontificating about something totally irrelevant.

'I don't think this man was a rapist, I don't even think he was interested in dating her or having sex with her. He just thought that he had every right to pester and talk at a woman he didn't know, who was minding her own business, just because she was there, and she was a woman.'

Dazzler and Larry, nothing you've said has addressed this. If you can, do.

It's the assumption that he did this solely because it was a woman. You simply cannot assume this IMHO as from my experience, these kind of numpties will harrass anyone.

But I agree, there are guys out there that feel entitled to harrass women and they are scum. No question.

It's what we can do about it. That's the big question as scum like this don't see reason or any wrongdoing in their actions.

Someone minding their own business, is the point. Women go about their lives and often get stuff- what am I saying - I've walked around in the world as a me, I've been shouted at etc by men, not by other women. That must mean something. ?

FWIW I agree with Larry and mentioned this in my post earlier.

SirEdmund,

All these things depend on context. It sounds like a typical nutter unaware of any social boundaries. They generally don't care if the person they are talking to is a man or a woman. A lot are mentally unwell and lonely. Personally, I generally feel sorry for them and chat for a couple of mins and then apologise and say I am busy and terminate the conversation.

Obviously, if you are caught alone with someone like that, it could be scary.

Dazzler and Larry

Give your comments on this:

'I don't think this man was a rapist, I don't even think he was interested in dating her or having sex with her. He just thought that he had every right to pester and talk at a woman he didn't know, who was minding her own business, just because she was there, and she was a woman.'

Larry

Exactly. The ire needs to be directed to those fools that genuinely impose on people in a bad way. These people impose upon everyone and it matters not whether you're male/female/old/young. I would say the majority of men/women are reasonable and as such, pose no problem. As ever it's the few that spoil things for the rest of us.

And I agree, having young kids is a great 'barrier breaker' as I've lost count of the times complete strangers (mainly women) approach to pay your kids compliments or to discuss random things. If anything I've found it's mainly women as men are more inclined to feel like they're imposing. I recently had a woman in a shop telling me how beautiful my daughter is. I doubt many men do this for fear of coming across inappropriately (in fact I've never had a man tell me how beautiful my daughter is).

I have been that woman on the bus. It's horrible. Really really horrible.

I don't understand why anyone feels they have the right to do this to another person - bully them into social interaction that is so clearly unwanted - 'sociable animals' or not.

Exactly, Solid.

'I don't think this man was a rapist, I don't even think he was interested in dating her or having sex with her. He just thought that he had every right to pester and talk at a woman he didn't know, who was minding her own business, just because she was there, and she was a woman.'

Dazzler,

I 100% agree with your post. I think that 90% of women do and maybe 8% or so are indifferent. It is a tiny minority who see any form of social interaction from a stranger as unwelcome.

I have two small toddlers and one of the nice things about it is that all sorts of people approach me all the time to chat. It is what makes a society. Otherwise, we would just be atomised individuals, which is a recipe for maladjustment and depression.

I find this kind of thread depressing, in the same way as I found it depressing when my football mad father in law passed a football back to a little boy and asked what team he supported, only for the boy to run to his father in abject terror (clearly, he had been taught of "stranger danger"). I do see that a minority of men are entitled and unduly persist when rejected. Save your ire for those.

curryeater

Do you understand the concept of humans as sociable animals? I've spent parts of my life in various places in the world and people are very different depending on where you go. As what I would consider a 'rational' human being I tend to adapt my social level to my surroundings.

Believe it or not, some places in the world contain people who are extremely extroverted compared to where I currently live (south of England). So in many cases, women will openly strike up a conversation with a complete stranger or say 'hello' when passing in the street. Being quite sociable I will always reciprocate, unless I am too busy, in which case I will make a polite excuse. As women are like this then I will adapt accordingly. My point is that people constantly impose on each other. I could take your view that it is a rude imposition but that's not my character. Some of the best conversations I've had have been with complete strangers, on busses, trains, airplanes. It's not about, "being able to do what I want". It's about acting in accordance to your surroundings. As per the TV programme it's about reading the signs that someone wants to interact. This is normally possible by making eye contact and reading someone's face.

Clearly some women feel it is their entitlement to strike up conversations with random men so it works both ways. Or maybe they don't think about it quite so deeply and just accept that it's a normal part of human existence. This isn't exclusively about women as it works equally for random men too.

So yes, it would be a sad day when humans felt they couldn't interact socially and I'm glad that I've even been approached by a frail old lady to help with crossing the road. That is entitlement. An old woman thinking that I should take time out of my life to help someone I don't know (happens a lot down south with all the retirees).

How you think your view can apply for all humans is absurd and I'm glad that, to date, people still feel able to strike up a random conversation with me without feeling threatened. As people do this with me then I'm going to act accordingly.

Fastidia:

"The ones who find it a minefield, are the nobbers who have a massive sense of grievance that sometimes, women don't want to allow them to take up our space, time and energy. Most men can cope with that concept quite easily, once they've been introduced to it."

Yeah but a few aren't getting it on this thread

"I don't consider it entitled...."
"I would be sad of the day when...."

in other words: I like being able to do what I want and don't want to hear that women don't like it

I saw an incident yesterday that's pretty typical. It was on a crowded bus ie anyone who got on board and wanted to sit down would have to sit next to someone else: fair enough. There was a man who got on board with his friend and had a rather loud conversation, about nothing scary or offensive, something to do with building and decorating and a mutual friend but something about the volume and the body language suggested 'Pest. Nutter. Attention-seeker.' He got bored with his friend and turned his attention to the woman sitting next to him, who was eating a sandwich.
'Enjoying your sandwich?' he bawled. The woman ignored him. He spent the next couple of minutes speculating loudly about whether or not she could speak English, and how rude everyone was these days. Then he shouted at her again, 'Enjoying your sandwich? Is it nice?' At which point the woman (presumably feeling she had no choice) answered him and they began a conversation, which did seem to develop fairly fast into a sharing of experiences about jobs, but at the same time I felt sorry for her, being unable to escape the Nutter On The Bus, and yet I didn't quite get up the nerve to intervene and say 'Look, dickhead, she doesn't want to talk to you, leave her alone.'

I don't think this man was a rapist, I don't even think he was interested in dating her or having sex with her. He just thought that he had every right to pester and talk at a woman he didn't know, who was minding her own business, just because she was there, and she was a woman.

I wonder what the proportion of relationships that start up in a random encounter fashion (both including and excluding bars/clubs) vs the proportion of the approachees who end up being bad mouthed or receiving other threatening behaviour.

No way of knowing, I expect, but I'm genuinely curious.

Fastidia

You're right, I'm not making any advances as I'm happily married. Anything else and I would be one of those nobbers! I've no doubt that some relationships are formed by such random encounters though.

Anyway I've just watched the programme on iPlayer and I could see all sides of the argument. I think the first speaker was at crossed purposes, as they essentially felt the same, although I didn't agree that women/men should keep quiet for minor incidences. That is for the individual to decide IMHO but I would definitely encourage someone to be vocal.

The problem (as you say) isn't with the 'normal' folk but with those fools that have no moral compass whatsoever. Be it through power, entitlement or some other twisted idea.

I'm glad they all agreed that flirting was perfectly normal/acceptable and ultimately that parenting is the key for the future. As I've mentioned on another thread, I believe the revolution starts at home and think the big gains will be had when parents of boys teach them about respect and parents of girls empower them to speak up and not accept it.

My kids are not long into secondary school yet but I wonder how things like this are progressing, if at all.

www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6028572