sexual advances - the big question

Oh and here's another thing.

You know all those men who are crap at reading social cues? Who plough on regardless, not bothering to note that the women they are intruding upon, are not showing any interest in pursuing the interaction?

Well those men are absolutely capable in a workplace scenario, of clocking when the best time to approach the boss with this problem is and if they see that he's not up for discussing this issue right now, they back off and make sure they broach the issue at a better time. They know when to approach their suppliers with the news that there's been a 25% budget cut and they won't be able to spend the same amount next financial year as they did this year, but they still want to retain their discount and they know by the body language and the tenor of the conversation, that Wednesday's meeting wasn't the right time to raise that, but they'll see how the land lies at next week's meeting. When they're in a club, they know when it's safe to smack down a lairy lad who has had too much to drink and when it's best to avoid said lad because things might turn violent.

And we're supposed to believe that those men are overtaken with the inability to read cues and become utterly socially inept once they're in the company of women.

Bullshit.

" They actually (in general) say that it is infantilising of women when they are unable to deal with it "

What does that mean?

That they are infantile for not being able to deal with it?

Or that it is infantilising of them to not expect them to deal with it?

Either way, the focus is back on women's behaviour isn't it and discussing how they ought to deal with harassment, instead of on that of men and discussing how and why they harass and how they can be prevailed upon to stop it.

I agree that Larry and Dazzler have absolutely demonstrated how men simply dismiss what women say about sexual assault. And this is why women don't speak up when it happens to them - because RL is full of men like them who will minimise and/ or dismiss women's complaints.

Dazzler, I think your assertion that you have never met a woman who has been subject to unwelcome attentions is very naive of you (that is the least combative word I can use at this point)

I think it far more likely that all these women would rather gnaw their own arm off than discuss their disquiet and vulnerability with someone who displays such a lack of insight into the problems faced on a daily basis by many females from about the age that they reach sexual maturity

Larry's friends and mother are not the views of many and indeed most women. I do not spend my life warding off men but even I have had unwanted attention from sex pests. It is not fun chatting up. It is difficult stuff women regularly have to cope with which men rarely do.

I am though women on the thread coudl set uot a set of rules men could follow which woudl really help:

1. Follow your employer's staff handbook - if it forbids relationships with colleagues never start one.

1. Do not chat up women at work or in any context where you have power over them, interviews, MP appointments, etc etc Particularly avoid mixing work and pleasure where you are senior to the woman or can influence her promotion or lose her her job.

1. Don't touch a woman ever unless she agrees. Don't touch a strange woman - just ask her out if you feel you want to. Don't pout your hand on her bottom, down her skirt, up her top or kiss her without permission if you're at work, on a train etc etc.

1. To use my example above don't ask her if she wants sex at the end of a business meeting.

Presumably most of us can agree on those 4 rules whether we're male or female?

Lazzer and Dazzer, along with a lot of the reactions to the Lord Rennard story, have demonstrated so well how women who report sexual harassment, in all it's forms, are not believed.

Dazzler149 - why did you change your name?

Anyway, before you're banned again you go, I'd like to thank you for your contributions to this thread.

I'll never know how you've remained so calm on a thread with so many hysterical women? Thank the Lord that Lazzer is here, for you to clap on the shoulder in a manly way, and agree that really hardly any women are harassed by men in real life at all - just these very few on MN.

Dazzler and Larry, You might want to read the point of view of 20,000 women instead.

"I don't know of any woman, that I've had a discussion with, that has ever been troubled by strangers."

I'm actually amazed by this. Have you asked them directly? Can you instigate an informal survey where you ask them 'Have you even been hassled by a random man?' and report back?

I have never ever ever met a woman that hasn't been subject to unwelcome advances in at least two of Lazz's categories. And that is women from all over the world of all classes and ages.

Your post does sound like this, Dazz:

"Larry, , I'm afraid us two chaps will never make these sad and damaged ladies see reason and that they are wrong and we are right. So sad"

And yet we are women telling you what we feel about the subject in question that impacts directly on us, our daughters, mothers, sisters and friends.

Do you think that we are lying?

YY running.

I'll wager that neither Lazzer or Dazzer have ever been put in the position that, for example, the women working with Rennard or the woman on the bus in SGB's post were put in. Otherwise they wouldn't be making such crass statements on this thread.

Not every woman can just shout "fuck off" at a man who is making unwanted advances to her. It's great if she can - but for many women a mixture of fear, embarrassment or simply social nicety can render you speechless and feeling helpless.

I have encountered the sort of situation "sandwich man on the bus" SGB described on many occasion - how many times have I ended up, often through politeness or embarrassment, having a strained conversation through gritted teeth with a man who is basically harassing me in public. I have wanted to yell fuck off and leave me alone many a time - but I would expect these people to take the social cues I'm clearly out by turning away, making no eye contact, clearly looking uncomfortable as "I don't want to talk to you". But they don't. Why is that?

Perhaps they are so completely unaware of anyone else's feelings other than their own "right" to go and talk to the pretty woman on the bus?

Promqueen,

I actually think that is really interesting and did draft a reply but assumed it would just be derided without being thought about.

I think we have both put two mirror arguments, both of which have value. I think that is why there are no simple answers in social interactions between human beings. Clearly you have had bad experiences when men have annoyed you and wasted your time (and maybe worse). Equally, most of my female friends and my mother have never found dealing with the attention of men a troubling aspect of their lives when I ask them about it. They actually (in general) say that it is infantilising of women when they are unable to deal with it (I am not including assault or anything illegal in this). Now, your experiences and theirs are real women's experiences. What conclusion am I meant to draw? Are they all just conditioned by the patriarchy to accept the unacceptable, or are some too sensitive? I don't think there is one truth, by the way.

I think it is pertinent too PQW.

x-posted. bye Larry, not interested in you