sexual advances - the big question

Promqueen,

Larry, or, if you like, Laurence. Please none of that Lazzer stuff.

Yes, if you want an honest answer, I do tend to present counter arguments, probably because I see them and also I do think that people can be very simplistic about things which are quite complex. But, in conversations where men are assuming very sexist things (some of which I have learned from these boards) I do challenge them with the counter argument too.

support? I meant report and no, not a Freudian slip :).

Running,

Just because I do not agree with every one of your trite truisms does not make me a misogynist. Quite the opposite.

I have encouraged and helped women to support harrassment throughout my career in the City. I had women working for me for years on end (when they had many other options) and was regarded as a fair, unsexist and popular boss, which is probably why my career ended when it did. I was unwilling to embrace crappy management double standards in many areas.

I don't think, though, that there are more unpleasant men than women.

What, about from those doing all the violence and killing against women you mean?

Laz

Are you literally actually MAD?

You can't possibly possibly say that women are anything like men when it comes to touching and harassment.

No matter how much you want to say the behaviour and world you are used to, men approaching women at will, is desirable, natural and just dandy, you still can't possibly say that.

It does demonstrate why some women don't report these things though - they know they're going to have to counter attitudes such as Lazzer and Dazzer's.

What evidence do you have that men report abuse less than women?

I have read evidence that says men are far more likely to report an incidence of domestic violence than women are for example.

I don't know about workplace abuse.

FB,

I am afraid I don't, not in the society in which I mix in the UK. I don't see much disparity at all, and in many spheres women are outperforming men. Another discussion, though.....

On a global scale, or even among a different social demographic (I think it is now referred to as CDE) I totally acknowledge the huge disparity of power.

Promqueen,

Probably not but the ratio is also probably a lot closer than a lot would believe. Plenty of people in power abuse their positions in all sorts of ways and more and more women now have positions of power. And men are far less likely to report it, the culture is really not on their side, they would be laughed at.

"Wotaboutthenmenz"

Because it happens so often doesn't it Larry. With the same regularity and the same level of career-destroying shit attached to it.

You wouldn't expect me to say anything other than all abuse of power is wrong.

And I have come to expect that you don't acknowledge the huge disparity of power between men and women.

FB,

"Oh well that's lucky for men who want to touch up women at dinner parties isn't it Larry."

What about women who touch up men at dinner parties? Or is that different because of the "power" relationship. And what if it is a female boss and a male subordinate?

But you implied it when you said a woman shouldn't be traumatised by a hand on her knee.

That implies that a touch is just a touch.

When we all know it's not.

And also, we are back to discussing women's reactions instead of men's behaviour.

Oh, and you may not like it, Lazzer, but I think Dazzer thinks you two are a team

FB,

"Pretending that "touch" is just touch - nothing else - and so therefore a woman would feel the same discomfort/ indifference whether it's a bloke in a pub or her boss's boss who has actual power over her ability to earn her living, furthers the interests of harassers. "

I never said this. In fact I think I said in a previous post that you had to approach work people and especially subordinates with great sensitivity. Most work places have very robust policies against harrassment these days which is a thoroughly good thing.

Luckily I am "retired" from that line of work now. Got boring dealing with infantile 21-40 year olds. Much happier dealing with toddlerish toddlers than man (and occasionally woman) childs.

Oh well that's lucky for men who want to touch up women at dinner parties isn't it Larry.

Lucky the CPS is on their side.

" They actually (in general) say that it is infantilising of women when they are unable to deal with it "

What does that mean?

That they are infantile for not being able to deal with it?

Or that it is infantilising of them to not expect them to deal with it?

Either way, the focus is back on women's behaviour isn't it and discussing how they ought to deal with harassment, instead of on that of men and discussing how and why they harass and how they can be prevailed upon to stop it.

Absolutely. Larry is hinting that it's the woman's own fault for not being able to shout 'fuck off' at the offending man - and because his mother apparently bats off male attention with ease, any woman should be able to?

Fact is, Larry, I, and in fact all the women I have ever known have had to deal with some sort of male harassment during their lives. We do in general deal with it and learn to live with it. But that doesn't make it all right, and that doesn't mean that women shouldn't speak out about it. It is intimidating and it shouldn't happen.

And you know what - they're are plenty of people I wouldn't discuss this with irl - certainly not with people like you and your mother who are apt to brush these things under the carpet.

Telegraph article: Our Culture Is Changing And The Sexists Don't Like It

Promqueen,

If we are talking about rudeness, of course they should not have to put up with it. But how many rudenesses of one sort or another do we all have to put up with in our lives?

Some people are pleasant, some far less so. If I could instantly turn every rude individual on this planet into a polite one, I would do so. However, I can't. I don't think, though, that there are more unpleasant men than women. And women can certainly impose on men, both sexually and otherwise. Bodily, men tend to be bigger and thus maybe more frightening but you only have to view youtube hen night footage to see some pretty rude sexually aggressive women.

There are no easy fixes and blaming men or the patriarchy for people's insensitivity and rudeness is way too simple.

When people mix up rudeness with assault, though, that is another matter. An unwanted touch on the knee at a dinner party can be annoying but it is in no way assault (and even if one could say it was, literally, in law), the CPS would never proceed.

And what an exciting work life you must have, with all these socially inept men who continually approach you for pay rises Larry.

So the bar for it to be acceptable is that she is not traumatised for life?

How long is she allowed to be traumatised for? A year? A month? A week? A minute? A second?

And of course, the idea that it is the touch on the knee that is traumatising, is the deeply dishonest proposition here. It isn't the touch, is it? It's the power relationships of those who are touching without permission or invitation and what that touch means.

Pretending that "touch" is just touch - nothing else - and so therefore a woman would feel the same discomfort/ indifference whether it's a bloke in a pub or her boss's boss who has actual power over her ability to earn her living, furthers the interests of harassers.

And of course, it's shifting the focus back to the women who are touched without permission, rather than leaving it where it should be: on the men who do this.

FB,

"What does that mean?

That they are infantile for not being able to deal with it?"

It means that adult women do not need protection from insensitive men and are not going to be traumatised for life by being touched on the knee at a dinner party. It harks back to the Victorian view of women as delicate, precious flowers.

Re your second post, I have been approached at work many times by guys asking for pay rises at the most inappropriate times and for the most inappropriate reasons, so I am not sure these men reserve their insensitivity for interactions with women.

Xenia,

You cannot claim my mother and friends are atypical any more than I know that the women on here are atypical. They are generally successful women who are confident enough to tell rude men to get lost when required, as I am sure you are.

I basically agree your four rules except for the one re touch. Many people are tactile and touch someone on the arm or even knee while chatting. As many women do it to men as men do it to women. Again it depends on the environment and relationship between the two protagonists. As for banning workplace relationships, good luck! Just about every place has a policy against it and it is always flouted and, as long as the two get on with their jobs, it is nearly always ignored.

(And, although I share some of Dazzer's views, we are two separate people with our own opinions and perspectives so although "Lazzer and Dazzer" has a certain ring to it, we have not had a mind meld and are two different people.)