Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

So now Mumsnet deletes posts on the grounds that they're offensive to people with religious beliefs and MRA's

188 replies

FastidiaBlueberry · 17/02/2013 12:55

On the circumcision thread a post of mine was deleted and when I asked mumsnet why, this was the response:

"While it is true that posts we don't tend to delete posts on the grounds of being in poor taste because it would be really hard to draw the line; we do as in this case remove posts that, in our judgement, are simply beyond the pale.

Your post was reported to us and tbh we felt that * (an offensive acronym for MRA's) was beyond the pale tbh, especially when added to the rest of your post which was also incredibly offensive to anyone with religious beliefs."

So basically, we are not allowed to post things which offend people's religious beliefs in conjunction with offending MRA's.

Just thought I'd let you all know. I'm not even annoyed about this, after last week's targeting I think it's obvious that MN really don't want radical feminism represented here.

OP posts:
catgirl1976 · 17/02/2013 22:08

Well yes

But I'm not sure people would always self-identify as such. You might get someone who just feels strongly about one view posting and getting called a "MRA" and then having that extended out to mean they are rapey.

Anyway. I'm not really interested in ending up defending MRAs, I have no desire or motivation to do so

I just don't like the term rapey in the context used. Nothing more.

Original poster
FastidiaBlueberry · 17/02/2013 22:04

Catgirl, MRA's do exclusively support men's rights.

They don't support women's rights.

Not at all.

As I said on the other thread, Men's Rights Activism, like Whites Rights activism, came out of a group losing some of their privilege and feeling attacked by that, because automatic privilege was what they were used to. MRA's feel strongly, that women's rights are an attack on men.

It's worth bearing in mind that the Southern Poverty Law Centre has designated MRA groups as hate groups. There's a reason for that.

OP posts:
BubblesOfBliss · 17/02/2013 21:57

catgirl1976
"Had I said "exclusively support", I would agree with you entirely"

Well with MENS Right Activists - the clue is in the name. Otherwise they would be 'Human Rights Activists HRA wouldn't they?

runningforthebusinheels · 17/02/2013 21:53

Fastidia - I would know instantly from your posting history, that you are a feminist, and absolutely would not trivialise rape. I'm actually surprised by MN's stance on this.

catgirl1976 · 17/02/2013 21:52

Had I said "exclusively support", I would agree with you entirely

BubblesOfBliss · 17/02/2013 21:50

MNHQ "We appreciate that some may disagree. But we made the decision in good faith and are happy to be transparent about our reasons."

I certainly don't want to trivialise rape - and it seems the term 'rapey' is not one MNers tend to seem familiar with and so is unlikely to catch on judging by the way it is taken very literally here.

But you get to judge HQ- your rules. I would like to know though what word we are allowed to use to describe actions and behaviour that promote rape culture/silences victims, aggressively violates, promotes male-entitled access to women's bodies etc. Because 'rape-apologist' has also been deleted in another thread.

BubblesOfBliss · 17/02/2013 21:44

catgirl1976 "I am sure it is entirely possible to support mens rights and to feel men are discriminated against in some circumstances without actually hating or attacking women, being anti-feminist, trivialising rape etc"

I strongly disagree with you here. The analogy is to say that it is entirely possible to support 'white' rights and to feel 'white people' are discriminated against in some circumstances without actually hating or attacking people of colour, being racist, trivialising hate-crime etc.

I do not believe it is possible to exclusively support the 'rights' of those who benefit as a group from the oppression of the other group, without also supporting the mechanisms of oppression.

It is possible to believe in furthering 'human rights' including all humans - both woman and men, but to separate out those who are already advantaged, then borrow the rhetoric of oppression is actually the behaviour of misogynists/racists/etc.

Men are not oppressed or denied rights by women, therefore they do not need to fight for their 'rights' as a group in relation to women.

Original poster
FastidiaBlueberry · 17/02/2013 21:40

I go on feminist forums all the time and today is literally the first time I've come across the idea that the word rapey trivialises rape, I've seen it used loads on feminist forums outside of Mumsnet.

But actually runningforthebus, I think you have a point - of course it's not seen as trivialising rape on feminist forums because everyone knows feminists don't trivialise rape (except Naomi Wolf Wink), whereas here on MN it's not a feminist space so I guess we can't take for granted that it's a space where rape isn't trivialised, so therefore it's reasonable for MN to believe that I was trivialising it, and if anyone else thought I was and was hurt by that, then I apologise.

Thanks for this Babyheave: "Based on the posting history of the OP, I'd be astounded if it was meant to dismiss women's experiences." Smile I'd be pretty astounded myself!

OP posts:
catgirl1976 · 17/02/2013 21:07

Like saying a song is "rapey" is one thing as a song cannot actually commit rape but could promote rape culture, but saying a man is "rapey" suggest he is or would like to be a rapist?

I'm not defending the men in question, and didn't even see the original thread, I just find the word, in the context, used a bit much tbh.

catgirl1976 · 17/02/2013 21:06

But in the context used by the OP, was it not more suggesting that a group of men were likely to be rapists rather than just promoting rape culture?

Especially by going on to suggest such men had a "vested interest" in promoting rape culture (essentially saying they would wish to commit rape?)

runningforthebusinheels · 17/02/2013 20:59

Bubblesofbliss - I do agree with your summary of the word rapey - I personally have always seen it as an abbreviation of 'rape culture'. I've seen it used on many a feminist forum and never interpreted it as belittling or trivialising of actual rape - presumably because feminists do not trivialise actual rape.

catgirl1976 · 17/02/2013 20:57

Mmmm.

Well, it's semantics really isn't it. But I'm sure you can see why some people might find it a bit offensive.

The distinction you make between MRAs and MREs is interesting, (And I think useful)

I am sure it is entirely possible to support mens rights and to feel men are discriminated against in some circumstances without actually hating or attacking women, being anti-feminist, trivialising rape etc

Much like being an animal rights supported wouldn't mean you wished to derail or trivialise human rights (the two not being mutually exclusive) whereas an extremist who fire bombed the home of a vivisectionist would be a bit different.

Although I can see, if you were having a discussion about human rights and an animal rights supporter kept popping up and saying "what about the cowz" it would be rather annoying.

I still wouldn't call them rapey though. For some reason it reminds me of children shouting "paedo" at odd, old men in the street. Immature, distasteful and trivalising something serious.

Anyway. Just my view.

MNHQ
HelenMumsnet · 17/02/2013 20:47

@BubblesOfBliss

So how about other extremist groups like the EDL? Would a post get deleted for naming them as the violent thugs they are. As a test here - The EDL are violent, racist thugs. Is this going to be deleted...

Or perhaps it is the changing of 'rape-culture-reinforcement-suggesting-a-vested-interest-that-looks-personal-and-a-bit-frightening' to 'rapey' that is the problem.

So perhaps if I say the EDL are 'violentish' that will be the real step too far..

I am unable to get where MNs line is here. MRAs are an extremist group FFS and their members troll around on MN all the time. Doesn't that concern HQ a bit?

Evening. And yes, of course, anyone trolling on MN concerns us - more than a bit.

But we think we're getting slightly off the point here.

We have no problem with robust criticism of MRAs but Fastidia's post actually read:

"An MRA is a Men's Rights Activist for those who asked. Although I prefer to think of them as Misogynist Rapey Arseholes."

We thought the use of "rapey" is this context was beyond the pale. Quite apart from the inference that they are all rapists (which, whatever we may think of them, is unlikely to be true), we read it as a phrase that trivialises rape.

We appreciate that some may disagree. But we made the decision in good faith and are happy to be transparent about our reasons.

BubblesOfBliss · 17/02/2013 20:46

runningforthebusinheels

"I reported a post on a thread recently when a very obvious 'MRA type' said about women 'crying rape' - for contravening the I Believe You Campaign. They did remove the post - which I was pleased about. "

Glad to hear that - I was beginning to lose faith.

BubblesOfBliss · 17/02/2013 20:43

catgirl1976 "When my ex raped me, I certainly didn't report it to the police by saying "Hello. My ex got a bit rapey tonight""

Nobody said you did.

I think that would have been trivialising it a little, no?

In that context yes

"But hey, if you scored a point then, you know, knock yourself out."

What is that supposed to mean?

"Also, I don't think that because someone is a "MRA" it follows that they are rapists."

I agree with that, but I'm sure you'll find many rapists and rape-aplogists among them, as well as perpetrators of DV and CSA, as well as your common-or-garden misogynist antifeminist troll types.

"Or even a bit "rapey"."

Here I disagree, I believe the word describes a violating male sexual entitlement that makes me shudder- frequently expressed by MRAs or should I say MREs (Men's Rights Extremists) as one of their identifiable characteristics.

However, if you find the word 'rapey' to decribe things pertaining to the attitudes and culture which normalise rape, a trivialisation of actual rape, then apologies. But I feel in no way that MREs deserve any dispassionate even-handedness since they have nailed their woman hating colours to the mast and seek to attack women, women's rights and feminism.

runningforthebusinheels · 17/02/2013 20:36

I reported a post on a thread recently when a very obvious 'MRA type' said about women 'crying rape' - for contravening the I Believe You Campaign. They did remove the post - which I was pleased about. The term 'cry rape' is such an absolutely heinous expression to use - it does indeed buy into every rape myth going.

catgirl1976 · 17/02/2013 20:19

When my ex raped me, I certainly didn't report it to the police by saying "Hello. My ex got a bit rapey tonight".

I think that would have been trivialising it a little, no?

But hey, if you scored a point then, you know, knock yourself out.

Also, I don't think that because some is a "MRA" it follows that they are rapists. Or even a bit "rapey".

BubblesOfBliss · 17/02/2013 20:00

Oh BTW someone's post was deleted recently for using 'rape-apologist' so sorry - too far for MN I'm afraid.

BubblesOfBliss · 17/02/2013 19:59

So how about other extremist groups like the EDL? Would a post get deleted for naming them as the violent thugs they are. As a test here - The EDL are violent, racist thugs. Is this going to be deleted...

Or perhaps it is the changing of 'rape-culture-reinforcement-suggesting-a-vested-interest-that-looks-personal-and-a-bit-frightening' to 'rapey' that is the problem.

So perhaps if I say the EDL are 'violentish' that will be the real step too far..

I am unable to get where MNs line is here. MRAs are an extremist group FFS and their members troll around on MN all the time. Doesn't that concern HQ a bit?

BubblesOfBliss · 17/02/2013 19:51

OliviaMumsnet Why is 'rapey' beyond the pale? Weird

Since a quarter of women are raped, and only a tiny percentages of rapist men are made accountable for their raping - these men who rape with impunity do in fact go about their business as usual. They do ordinary things - like brush their teeth, go to work, post on Mumsnet, etc.

When a man expresses hostile masculinity, or an organised group of men express hostile masculinity - showing a fear of feminists and a desire to discredit us, or aggressively pushing an agenda to silence victims of rape (pushing rape myths such as false accusations in a feminist forum), or silence victims of DV or CSA (using bollocks terminology like 'parental alienation syndrome' etc) - then surely such behaviour is so conducive to maintaining a rape culture that the shorthand 'rapey' is most appropriate? I thing MNHQ the kind of posts you should really be deleting are the ones that bang on about 'false accusations' not those naming the perpetrator.

I find it very sinister indeed that the MRAs are able to manipulate MN like this

Original poster
FastidiaBlueberry · 17/02/2013 19:46

at SGB's list of inappropriate venues for a sexual proposition.

Funeral would definitely be up there.

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 17/02/2013 18:17

I don't think that article linked to is particularly whiny: I think the author makes some fair points. It's not wrong to want sex, or want a particular kind of sex, and it isn't wrong to ask for sex, just as long as you take no for an answer (and aren't asking in a situation any reasonable person would consider inappropriate, such as in the middle of a business meeting, at a funeral, or with someone you literally met three seconds ago at an ordinary (ie not sex-related) social event).

seeker · 17/02/2013 18:13

Or even Misogynistic Rape Apologists?

seeker · 17/02/2013 18:11

Can we call them Mysogynist Rape Apologists then?

nenevomito · 17/02/2013 18:06

Its not a term I've used or heard before, but context is everything and if its deemed too offensive to be used on MN then its the first I've heard of it. Based on the posting history of the OP, I'd be astounded if it was meant to dismiss women's experiences.

Posts dismissing MRA bollocks or criticising religion are hardly new for MN and not deleted as a matter of course from what I've seen.

Swipe left for the next trending thread