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Original poster

So in the wake of a massive public spotlight on rape, the priority apparently is to protect the reputations of the tiny % of men falsely accused of rape

339 replies

FastidiaBlueberry · 17/02/2013 00:18

FFS FFS FFS

Is it very cynical of me to think that this new demand to enable anonymity for men accused of rape (most of whom are guilty, but get off anyway) is a psychological need to re-establish what is most important to these woman-haters?

Stop talking about the mountain of rape victims who never get justice and FGS start talking about the anthill of men who get falsely accused.

Enough of Steubenville, Delhi, Frances Andrade, Jimmy Savile's victims, the 1 in 4 women who are raped or sexually assaulted.

Let's get back to talking about the really important issues - the miniscule number of men who will be falsely accused of rape or who will be the victim of mistaken identity. Fools, don't you know they're more important than all those rape vicitms? That that's a much bigger issue? So what 25% of women are subjected to rape or sexual assault? So what if 85-90% of rape victims don't report? So what that of those who do, only 6% get a guilty verdict even though only between 2-6% are lying or mistaken? Let's get some perspective on this - men matter more than women, stop imagining they don't.

Fuming but off to bed.

OP posts:
Original poster
FastidiaBlueberry · 20/02/2013 19:49

"Isn't it better to say that both situations are dreadful?"

Why is it better to say that?

It's not wrong to say that.

But it's not better.

It presents some sort of false equivalence doesn't it - ignoring the fact that one is far more common than the other.

OP posts:
morethanpotatoprints · 20/02/2013 19:46

Fast.

People don't generally believe men are innocent of rape ime.
Of course it is punishing him, have you never seen what it does to a person, to families ( and I don't mean because they don't believe him ). Do you know what it does to his children, how his work is affected. He may be temporarily suspended from his work, especially if with children. His work colleagues may be questioned, his wife will have to answer all manner of personal questions.
They may be targeted by vigilantes, they may have to move.
So having been on the receiving end of rape and a dh accused of rape. DFO you know nothing.

SigmundFraude · 20/02/2013 19:43

'I really wish you could spend an hour in the company of the thousands of women who have been raped and have had their lives utterly broken by it for years and years, sometimes forever. There are many, many more of them, than men who have been falsely accused. But they just don't matter as much, do they? It's OK to have them as collateral damage because their lives just don't matter as much as those of men.'

Isn't it better to say that both situations are dreadful?

Original poster
FastidiaBlueberry · 20/02/2013 19:41

Most people believe rapists are innocent, unless they are one of the minority of rapists who don't know the victim beforehand and use other violence or threats to facilitate the rape.

Of those who are believed to be guilty and subjected to male violence as a result of suspicion, the main reason those men subject him to that violence, is because they know full well that if he is guilty, he'll probably walk free anyway.

How would anonymity solve those problems?

OP posts:
Original poster
FastidiaBlueberry · 20/02/2013 19:38

Accusing an innocent man of rape is not punishing him, anymore than accusing an innocent man of murder, robbery, burglary or any other crime.

People generally believe men are innocent of rape.

Even when they are found guilty of rape, FGS.

Ched Evans anyone?

OP posts:
morethanpotatoprints · 20/02/2013 19:35

Fast.

Yes I have both.

How the hell does it help a rape victim by punishing an innocent man?

morethanpotatoprints · 20/02/2013 19:34

Once again.
The thousands of women who have been raped and had their lives utterly broken does not imo mean that an annocent man should have his life utterly broken.
FFS its not tit for tat get any bloody man at any cost. Or is that what the supporters want.

Original poster
FastidiaBlueberry · 20/02/2013 19:32

"Until you have had a loved one wrongly accused, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about."

I could say "Until you have been raped or had a loved one be raped and engage in the self-destructive behaviour and fall-out which can last decades and is caused not so much by the rape itself, but by societal attitudes surrounding rape, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about."

But really, what would be the point?

OP posts:
Original poster
FastidiaBlueberry · 20/02/2013 19:23

"Most rape allegations are genuine, keeping names out of the headlines until convicted means that will be far less public attention to the small number of false allegations as those men won't be publicly victimised and branded."

Wrong. Before 1975, there was anonymity for defendants accused of rape. There was no less "public attention to the small number of false allegations" then than there is now - the first subject of discussion was in fact, how many false allegations there were, just as it is now. Not only that, every time the jury retired to consider its verdict, judges would remind them that however convincing the evidence seemed, it was well known that women frequently lied about rape.

I'm not making that up, this is what happened. Judges warned juries that women frequently lied about rape.

Why do you think they did that? Because there was research which showed how mad women were, how unbalanced, morally deficient and malicious they were? No, there was no research, there was simply kneejerk misogyny, which is where the idea of the prevalence of false allegations comes from.

Here's a thing: Most accused rapists walk free from a police interview. Most don't even get taken to court, let alone convicted. The vast majority of men accused of rape, are guilty. When a man walks free having been accused of rape, because of the statistics, there will always be a bit of a doubt as to whether he's innocent, because we all know that he's most likely to be guilty but have got away with it.

I would have thought that those of you so concerned with innocent men wrongly accused, would have had more interest in seeing how we can raise the conviction rate of those who are actually guilty. That would surely be the best immunisation against the lingering cloud of suspicion following a false or mistaken allegation. Anonymity for accused rapists wouldn't do that, it would ensure that even more rapists walk free.

John Worboys is in prison because he didn't have anonymity. If he had had, he'd still be driving round London raping women. But who cares, what does that matter, compared with the tiny risk of a man being falsely accused eh?

"I really wish you could spend an hour with my husband ..he is a broken man...broken by a women who accused him of historic abuse and rape"

I really wish you could spend an hour in the company of the thousands of women who have been raped and have had their lives utterly broken by it for years and years, sometimes forever. There are many, many more of them, than men who have been falsely accused. But they just don't matter as much, do they? It's OK to have them as collateral damage because their lives just don't matter as much as those of men.

OP posts:
morethanpotatoprints · 20/02/2013 19:01

Until you have had a loved one wrongly accused, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about.

It is devastating and can completely ruin lives.
Maybe too many men aren't prosecuted, there are huge flaws in the system.
However, this is not the fault of the innocent.
Thankfully we have a justice system of innocent until proved guilty and I would like to keep it that way, especially for those who are innocent.

WhentheRed · 20/02/2013 18:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 20/02/2013 18:36

Maisere, I am thinking of Joanna Yeates's landlord who was under suspicion for her murder for a while.

The answer might be more overall curbs on media behaviour.

WhentheRed · 20/02/2013 18:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

maisere · 20/02/2013 18:25

Your talking different crimes which are both horrendous but different.
How many murderers are known as a nonce and subject to vigilante revenge
in their own homes when found not guilty? Not many..... where I live murder would be a badge of honour ! I firmly believe that any criminal should serve a whole sentence and hopefully be left to continue the life they have left. Should they re-offend then its the system that is wrong and not fit for purpose. I don't see reports of murder which are false and malicious either.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 20/02/2013 18:03

Do you also support anonymity for those accused of murder?

thezebrawearspurple · 20/02/2013 17:38

Falsely accused men are victims too, as are their wives, daughters, sisters, mothers... Being falsely accused means having being threatened with and being on the receiving end of vigilante violence, it means harassment for the family, it means loss of job/career and all future job prospects even when found innocent (because most people think like you do, that they were probably guilty anyway and got away with it), it means social ostracisation for the whole family including children.

I don't see anything feminist about supporting destroying the lives and reputations of innocent men and their families.

The fact is that so long as you are going to prosecute someone on the basis of anothers word with no other evidence necessary, then you have to provide anonymity until it is proven in court. If we were to prosecute people on charges of drug trafficking or murder on the basis of one persons allegation without any proof to suggest such a thing ever took place, I'm sure there would be many innocent people being prosecuted of those crimes on the basis of malicious allegations and many more allegations of that nature being made as certain people realise the power they can wield over neighbours/colleagues/strangers who have slighted them in some way.

Some people (a tiny minority) are just liars, they lie about all sorts of things, my friend was a victim of her neighbours making false claims to ss because they were trying to drive her out as they didn't want blacks there (yeah right, women don't lie, those nasty, racist women tried to destroy her family), whether it is about being malicious, attention seeking for themselves or revenge, there are people who lie and that needs to be recognised, liars lie about all sorts of things, including abuse. Denying that doesn't help rape victims, allowing innocent people's lives to be ruined doesn't further anyone's rights.

Most rape allegations are genuine, keeping names out of the headlines until convicted means that will be far less public attention to the small number of false allegations as those men won't be publicly victimised and branded. Putting the spotlight on men who are later found innocent makes people (future juries) more suspicious of rape claims in general. Juries will be far more hesitant of convicting where the evidence proves that he did it if their heads are full of stories of wrongly accused men, you need them focused on the case in hand without prejudice.

What we really need to discourage rape is harsh sentencing upon conviction and a culture where rape is unacceptable. Keep the media exposure to those convicted and the attention is on rape victims, let the pubic get angry about that.

Trekkie · 19/02/2013 19:16

I always think that there are loads of crimes that are just as bad / worse to be accused of than rape of an adult. Things like paedophilia or child porn or torture or murder or pimping or trafficking children for slavery or trafficking adults for prostitution against their will.

Yet it's only rape of an adult woman by a man that people want to see anonimity for.

Why is that I wonder...

maisere · 19/02/2013 17:19

It was falsification in my hubbies case.

maisere · 19/02/2013 17:17

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Yes it is very different unless the man is a rapist because he won't give a hoot anyway.....
For an innocent man to be accused of such a crime is soul destroying, ask yourself one question if it was you accused how would you feel, what emotions would you suffer ??
Maisere

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 19/02/2013 17:16

Maisere, was it mistaken identity or falsification in your husband's case, if you are able and willing to say?

maisere · 19/02/2013 17:12

chibi Sun 17-Feb-13 11:53:09
there is a fundamental lack of understanding here of how policing works- do posters think you can just pootle on down to the police station, announce that someone has raped you, and that's it, they are arrested?

i would be very surprised to hear if this were actually the case

YES THEY CAN AND DO

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 19/02/2013 17:07

Maisere, I'm sorry that happened to your husband. But a six month investigation for fraud or murder might well have been equally devastating. Or do you see it differently?

maisere · 19/02/2013 17:03

FastidiaBlueberry-"It is simply untrue to say that an untrue rape allegation is more disastrous for a man than any other type of untrue allegation of a crime."

I really wish you could spend an hour with my husband ..he is a broken man...broken by a women who accused him of historic abuse and rape, a crime I know 100% he had not commited. He has been fully investigated and has NO CASE TO ANSWER. The sheer hell of being investigated for 6 months finished him.There are many men in the same position up and down the country.
To say that being accused of rape is not more disastrous for a man than any other crime just shows how narrow minded you are.
If you are going to pass comment on this very emotive subject at least have the decency to do it with an open mind please.
Maisere

edam · 19/02/2013 16:39

Good grief, just followed the link to the surveys of men. Horrifying how many confess to rape and repeated rape if you describe it rather than using the word rape.

edam · 19/02/2013 16:33

I'm glad this thread has been so thought provoking and has helped people think about the damaging effects of special treatment for those accused of rape.