Why ban page 3?

"I think with your comment on teenagers reading Katie P's biog as a guide to, well, anything, you are either (a) taking the piss or (b) seriously deluded."

I am not alone in suggesting that people desire to be like Katie Price and I don't think the view is that strange, you might not feel that she is a legitimate role model but that doesn't mean others don't. To me she seems to be someone who has attained a desirable affluent lifestyle, much like the wider WAG community.

"if the reason that women want to ban page 3 is because they are jealous of the models?"

Hi ashesgirl, no that is definitely not the point I am trying to make. My concern is that mainstream female culture is so conformist that page 3 models are a threat because by seeing them there is some expectation that they should be emulated or that others would expect all women to be like them. I think men don't have this concern because they have such a diversity of role models and lifestyles that other men consider valid. I am not threatened by lifestyles I wouldn't personally enjoy or particularly approve of (like cage fighting) but its existence is not disturbing to me because it says very little about how I should live.

I think those are good points FreyaSnow my grandparents are half working class and half middle class. Those from a working class background have mostly taken teaching, and administrative roles, one has aimed for organising dance music gigs which I suppose is a variation on pursuing a singing career. Although I agree they wouldn't say they were trying to escape being working class, they do wish to avoid some of the less pleasant jobs, like retail, call centre and factory work. I think they all have had dreams of celebrity careers at some point e.g. sport, music etc. but generally haven't pursued them directly.

I certainly agree that it would preferable to have other role models than those in the sex industry. I think that should be a priority for feminism. I think celebrities and fictional heroes contribute a lot to how people think about what they should and could be. There are a massive collection of male ones and I think that contributes to helping men have the drive to achieve and to some extent might explain the relative disparity of men in high stress, high status jobs.

"one in four young people are sexually abused"
I'd love to find out more about these statistics as they seem incredibly high. Assuming that is mostly girls (i.e. almost half of all girls), that is so high it would be hard to get the statistics on it. It would require sample surveys across many demographics. It would also help to get that in perspective a bit more in terms of actual suffering, abused seems like a strong word to match that statistic. I am surprised there is not more policing of this issue if it is so widespread, I have never observed something I would term abuse. I have been hit by strangers twice and been threateningly felt up by a man as an adult (I knew him) although these incidents are memorable I'm not sure I think of them as abuse but perhaps I am being overly sensitive about semantics. I guess the real issue is how psychologically damaging such incidents are in comparison to other, non sexual forms of attack, such as bullying, to try and get such problems in perspective.

FastidiaBlueberry, loved the checklist I'm going to read it through again. A few of them in particular have never occurred to me. Like "Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to 'smile.'"

"Teenagers now have been exposed to it through the Internet and media and mostly seem really aware that it's not aspirational."

I completely agree that the industry is seedy and exploitative, although so many are, particularly singing. I wonder what the new role models are, I still think there are some teenagers who are reading Katie Price's autobiography as a guide to how to escape their limited prospects, as that is the feedback from my wife's friend in teaching. The advantage of Katie Price's career is that, superficially at least, it looks attainable to many girls. I wonder what other, vaguely credible, role models exist for working class girls?

Thanks, FastidiaBlueberry the racial analogy is a very good one and a very disturbing one to me.
I suppose that issue has not really been addressed either, although things like Obama being president help. I also see analogies in how black music stars are often photographed to make them look like tanned Caucasians although I don't get the impression that that approach is common in magazines targeted directly at black readers (although I am hardly an expert). I think there is still insufficient objection to mainstream female culture and I still find it difficult to understand how direct male actions are leading to oppression except through a sort of post-colonialist legacy kind of way.

I have ordered "The Equality Illusion" (www.amazon.co.uk/The-Equality-Illusion-Truth-about/dp/0571246273/ref=lh_ni_t?ie=UTF8&psc=1) so hopefully that will clear things up bit for me.

LineRunner, could you explain what I've missed in a bit more detail. I don't understand how my argument is circular. I'm suggesting an underlying psychological and sociological explanation for the dynamic between men and women. I think it offers explanations for most of the issues raised here but I may have missed something. I don't really understand the alternative Patriarchy one. I'm still confused as to why men's attitudes/actions indirectly create such strong Female to Female oppressive behaviour. Much stronger in my experience than that of the majority of direct Male to Female oppression, which I feel is relegated to an insecure male minority. Although a lot of the posts refer to an implicit male oppression, e.g. through porn, can that really be so much more influential than the explicit form in the majority of women's magazines?

"What is Katie Price a role model of?"

I think she has a similar role for working class teenage girls that footballers have for working class teenage boys. An example of how to be rich and do what you want while having your sex appeal validated.

I think it's confusing because I'm describing one situation and then describing it again with the sexes reversed.

In the first case where I'm describing men oppressing men I'm saying that within those relationships women sometimes reinforce the oppression because of their own insecurity (i.e. treat men as status objects).

In the second case, imagine the sexes reversed. i.e. women oppressing women. I'm suggesting that male sexism can be understood as a male mirror of the first case i.e. insecure men treating women as status objects.

This perspective suggests that rather than their being an overriding oppressive male domination that it is really two parallel systems of same sex oppression. Men just look more successful because they can't give birth and so get more money at the top, but really lots of men and women are being oppressed but primarily by their own sex.

BOB? (www.internetslang.com/BOB-meaning-definition.asp)?

Who's the BOB?

"Sorry I don't understand what you mean by this?"

Apologies it was too elaborate a point to make at the end of a sentence like that.

What I mean is that I think there are a minority of women who would leave their partners if they didn't conform to oppressive status hierarchies. I think those women are imposing this oppression because of insecurities they have about their own status and are trying to validate themselves through their partners. Likewise I think sexist behaviour in modern men can be interpreted as insecure men reinforcing oppression on women, not because they find sexist roles appealing but because by doing so they feel more important. Although the values that are being enforced may seem to be appealing to men they are likewise more subtle in their interests and don't really want sexist stereotypes for partners. These values may come from other women trying to impose values on each other, just as men threaten men with being unloveable for not conforming to their own abusive stereotypes.

Ok, so I'm interested in your take on this.

Men often use the threat of female approval as a tool for oppressing one another. Exploitative status hierarchies are facilitated by the threat that unless a man is rich, handsome, strong, deep voiced, hairy, famous etc. they are to some extent unlovable I know of a number of men who have tolerated abusive working environments because of the fear that their wives will leave them if they don't.

I don't think that this is men being oppressed by women. I think this is men being oppressed by men, who are concealing that oppression through an exaggerated and largely fictional threat. I think in reality women's interest in men is a lot more subtle and personal except for a minority who I feel are enforcing this oppression because of their own insecurities. Objectification and misogyny of women can be viewed as a direct mirror of this.