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Original poster

Why ban page 3?

582 replies

jackburton · 12/02/2013 20:44

Hi, this is my first post, please be gentle :) . I'm looking for some thoughtful discussion on page 3 and the objectification of women, my wife suggested posting here. Any recommendations for good articles or feedback would be great.

My main issue with a lot of the traditional discussion on this issue is that there seems to be an implicit assumption of passivity and conformity in women that I can't really relate to as a man (or feel is present in many of the women in my life). I don't particularly worry about my son seeing body building or gay lifestyle magazines or other fetishised representations of men because I see them as part of a range of different types of lifestyle that he could adopt. I would think it quite alien that the occasional image of men in this way would significantly affect me (or him). In contrast, advertising and lifestyle magazines aimed at women seem to impose a very disturbing level of conformity and one that I feel would not be acceptable to most men. Frankly a lot of female targeted products seem to objectify (in the sense of judging purely by appearance) and be misogynist (in the sense of appearing to gain pleasure from and dwelling on the humiliation of women, particularly if their superficial appearance is non-conformist). In contrast most pornographic products aimed at men include a great diversity of female personality types, some are passive but many are not, Jordan being a classic example. They aren't treated as objects in the sense that their desire is critical to their appeal, sex dolls are relatively undesirable. While there is certainly some pornography and lifestyle discussions that appear to encourage pleasure in the suffering of women I feel this is in the minority with most magazines presenting their female models as stars who are the centre of attention and whose happiness and desire is an important part of their appeal.

My initial feelings about the campaign against page 3 is that these images are being judged assuming they were present in the kind of magazine targeted at women i.e. they are a conforming image and that they would lead to humiliation of those that didn't conform. I think the majority of male culture is not oppressive in that way. Personally I find mainstream female culture to be much more of a problem for women's liberation than these products. What am I missing?

OP posts:
ashesgirl · 13/02/2013 22:43

It's all very fascinating when you're on the outside looking in.

ashesgirl · 13/02/2013 22:43

Pfft

LineRunner · 13/02/2013 22:43

So, OP, you are here defending the freedom to pornify women and girls in the name of free speech.

Nice try, lots of wordiness and everything.

Original poster
jackburton · 13/02/2013 22:41

Thank you all for another fascinating discussion. Off to bed now, have a lot to think about.

OP posts:
ashesgirl · 13/02/2013 22:40

People don't keep it to themselves. It's a daily newspaper and it sits on the coffee table in your house which is how I, as a little girl, became exposed to it every single day for years.

LineRunner · 13/02/2013 22:39

... and male publishers control the narratives and images aimed at women.

Original poster
jackburton · 13/02/2013 22:38

"Right Jack, so tell me why you're not allowed to show sexualised topless women on TV before 9pm on telly?"

Good point. I hadn't really thought about how much Page 3 intruded on other people's lives because I have mainly experienced it as a personal choice to purchase or passively present on shelves in a shop. My preference would be to encourage people to keep it to themselves to a greater extent, rather than ban it. Likewise, I find a lot of Daily Mail articles quite offensive, I would be uncomfortable with my son casually reading them (when he's older, he can't read yet) but I would definitely resist banning the paper or forcing an editorial change on it.

OP posts:
BubblesOfBliss · 13/02/2013 22:35

" if it was just viewed as another men's publication there wouldn't be as much of an issue."

I wonder Jack if the penny is beginning to drop about the issue people have been repeating in this thread: Men as default, women as 'other'...

The way things stand in a patriarchal society is that everything unless stated otherwise is for men.

FreyaSnow · 13/02/2013 22:31

Here is the report about sexualisation. The impact of sexualisation isn't going to be the same as the impact of sexual abuse; the NSPCC might have more on the impact of sexual abuse:

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/Sexualisation-of-young-people2835.pdf?view=Binary

There was another report about sexualisation more recently. I think it might be the Bailey report.

Original poster
jackburton · 13/02/2013 22:30

Great points williaminajetfighter I think things are very different in a workplace where a person is often forced to experience something and I can certainly understand that the dynamics you describe are unacceptable.

OP posts:
ashesgirl · 13/02/2013 22:29

Right Jack, so tell me why you're not allowed to show sexualised topless women on TV before 9pm on telly?

LineRunner · 13/02/2013 22:28

OP, I don't find your style authoritative at all.

ashesgirl · 13/02/2013 22:28

Did anyone see the Neil Wallis article on the 'wimmin' who just want to get it banned? This really narked me!

He says it's middle class wimmin who eat 'wheatgerm' trying to impose their views on everyone else. And the working class women who buy the paper don't care.

Well I was brought up in a working class household where my parents bought The Sun. As a girl growing up, I used to squirm so much when anybody turned over the front page. How awful for young girls exposed to it.

So I have never bought the paper myself but I feel it does affect my life. Bugs me, when people say don't like it, don't buy it.

Bloody annoying article here ...

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/neil-wallis/page-3-should-not-be-banned_b_1908751.html

Original poster
jackburton · 13/02/2013 22:26

"Banning page 3 is about acknowledging that women are equal, that newspapers are not the sole domain of men who must be pandered to."

I don't think newspapers should be thought of as anything other than entertainment products for different demographics. They are highly skewed to different perspectives and there is reasonable diversity between them. The existence of page 3 in the Sun places no restriction on other newspapers who don't have an equivalent emphasis. I suspect the real problem is that so many women read the Sun, if it was just viewed as another mens publication there wouldn't be as much of an issue.

OP posts:
williaminajetfighter · 13/02/2013 22:26

....because it's very hard to have a civil conversation with a man at work when they're talking to you and looking at tits at the same time. And when you're their manager. A bit of a disconnect there, don't you think.

... because naked women shouldn't be something you have a lookie at while you're trying to read slightly legitimate news.

I have been waiting for this day forever. 2 years ago I asked my boss if we could remove the Sun from our staff sitting room---- it was there every day and bugged me that it was often open to page 3. I thought she would understand especially as a young, highly paid female manager but no... she said she 'doesn't condone censorship', told me I sounded like a bit arrogant complaining about it and made out like I am a hater of the working classes for disliking the Sun. Other staff heard our conversation and I got a bad rap as a troublemaker. I felt like Sally Field in Norma Rae!

People are very very sanctimonious about the Sun as some kind of voice of the working classes and therefore precious about changing the paper. But they shouldn't be precious about retaining naked women.

Original poster
jackburton · 13/02/2013 22:18

Thanks FreyaSnow. I'll check out the NSPCC stuff. The psychological impact report would also be useful if anyone knows the link.

OP posts:
ashesgirl · 13/02/2013 22:17

Good post, ninja. You summed it up well.

ashesgirl · 13/02/2013 22:16

Banning page 3 is about acknowledging that women are equal, that newspapers are not the sole domain of men who must be pandered to.

It's also about trying to break down the complete and utter sexualisation of women in our society.

FreyaSnow · 13/02/2013 22:15

Jack, there is a breakdown for all the sexual abuse figures and a copy of the research in the statistics section on the NSPCC website, so you should be able to see how it was compiled. There are also figures on the other types of abuse including physical abuse and bullying.

There was a report on the sexualisation of children that the government funded which looked at what the psychological impact was, which somebody on here might have a link to.

ninjasquirrel · 13/02/2013 22:14

I find Page 3 utterly grim and it's not about feeling expected to emulate it! Firstly it's the general view of women in that paper. Men = businessmen, sportsmen, politicians... Women = tits and a few celebs who might just squeeze in. Secondly I just don't want to be on a train with some bloke ogling naked breasts. It's just unpleasant! (not the breasts, the ogling)

Original poster
jackburton · 13/02/2013 22:13

Sorry LineRunner, apologies for my style I'm a university researcher and the tendency to write in an authoritative style is hard to break. All of my comments are my own view, even those with references are very selectively obtained (usually at short notice through Google) and so are certainly not objective facts.

OP posts:
LineRunner · 13/02/2013 22:12

"I don't think women are jealous of page 3 models I think they are concerned that they will be expected to be like them...I think this is less of an issue for men because male culture is more accepting of a diverse range of lifestyles."

I think you wrong, but wrong for very interesting reasons. Which have been told to you, if you would but read and listen.

ashesgirl · 13/02/2013 22:10

Ok, I see what you mean. But I don't think that's the main reason for those campaigning against page 3.

LineRunner · 13/02/2013 22:09

You misunderstand what I said, OP.

Also could you post evidence for things you say in the vein of 'people desire' or be clear that this stuff you write is actually your own personal view.

Original poster
jackburton · 13/02/2013 22:09

Sorry ashesgirl, is this any clearer:

I don't think women are jealous of page 3 models I think they are concerned that they will be expected to be like them.

I think this is less of an issue for men because male culture is more accepting of a diverse range of lifestyles.

OP posts: