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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why ban page 3?

582 replies

jackburton · 12/02/2013 20:44

Hi, this is my first post, please be gentle :) . I'm looking for some thoughtful discussion on page 3 and the objectification of women, my wife suggested posting here. Any recommendations for good articles or feedback would be great.

My main issue with a lot of the traditional discussion on this issue is that there seems to be an implicit assumption of passivity and conformity in women that I can't really relate to as a man (or feel is present in many of the women in my life). I don't particularly worry about my son seeing body building or gay lifestyle magazines or other fetishised representations of men because I see them as part of a range of different types of lifestyle that he could adopt. I would think it quite alien that the occasional image of men in this way would significantly affect me (or him). In contrast, advertising and lifestyle magazines aimed at women seem to impose a very disturbing level of conformity and one that I feel would not be acceptable to most men. Frankly a lot of female targeted products seem to objectify (in the sense of judging purely by appearance) and be misogynist (in the sense of appearing to gain pleasure from and dwelling on the humiliation of women, particularly if their superficial appearance is non-conformist). In contrast most pornographic products aimed at men include a great diversity of female personality types, some are passive but many are not, Jordan being a classic example. They aren't treated as objects in the sense that their desire is critical to their appeal, sex dolls are relatively undesirable. While there is certainly some pornography and lifestyle discussions that appear to encourage pleasure in the suffering of women I feel this is in the minority with most magazines presenting their female models as stars who are the centre of attention and whose happiness and desire is an important part of their appeal.

My initial feelings about the campaign against page 3 is that these images are being judged assuming they were present in the kind of magazine targeted at women i.e. they are a conforming image and that they would lead to humiliation of those that didn't conform. I think the majority of male culture is not oppressive in that way. Personally I find mainstream female culture to be much more of a problem for women's liberation than these products. What am I missing?

OP posts:
PromQueenWithin · 22/02/2013 13:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 22/02/2013 10:40

Ooh, you're right - MNHQ must have missed some zippy posts!

Lessthanaballpark · 22/02/2013 10:09

Doctrine, no Zippy is Zippy! Zippy is the OP of the male circumcision thread, and according to a post from MNHQ, a previously banned poster who keeps coming back like a bad smell!

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 22/02/2013 09:52

TBF I don't think nina is Zippy. Though they might get on well.

Lessthanaballpark · 22/02/2013 09:52

"Feminism isn't about giving the patriarchy a choice to continue itself."

Thanks Linerunner, that's exactly how I feel about a lot of "choice feminism".

Jackburton, in relation to Jordan and other women who have made a fortune out of their bodies being a role model, I would say ultimately these women are on very thin ground. Beauty is always held up as something women should aspire to but then we unfairly look down on women who use their "feminine wiles" as being manipulative and / or shallow. Look how much people hate Jordan.

Beauty is never put on a par with intelligence or strength, which are things that boys are directed to. It is amazing how early girls are taught the message that beauty is for them, whilst strength and intelligence is for boys. Just walk into a toy shop and you will see. It's not a fair choice at all.

That is why RS was a model and OP an athlete. It's also why people mourn the loss of his talent to the world rather than hers. You wouldn't know that she was a law graduate at the start of her career and a campaigner against domestic violence unless you had more of a passing interest because what has jumped out of the trash tabloids is her body and modelling career rather than the things her mind was capable of.

The day they get rid of Page 3 will be a happy day.

Lessthanaballpark · 22/02/2013 09:38

Zippy1111, I thought you'd been banned? Back again?

nina17 · 21/02/2013 18:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BubblesOfBliss · 14/02/2013 23:26

Zippy1111 "Here are my thoughts on page 3"

Perhaps you should say "Here is my unthinking view on page 3, predigested by the mainstream, misogynist consumer culture rhetoric":

"-All the models are well paid"

Not true actually. You can't make a living as a page 3 model, it is not very well-paid.

"consenting adults"

Consent is a non-word. Also it is relative to a persons readiness to be exploited which is defined by a persons options (or lack of).

"-The models have made that choice to make money with their body."

See above

"Isn't feminism about choice? Even if it's a choice that not every woman might agree with?"

No - although the choice to have an abortion or not means feminists may call themselves 'pro-choice' - this does not mean feminists are 'pro-all-choice' including the choice to participate in practices that harm women as a group (though it does mean - sympathy for any sister who has had to make these choices through a lack of real choice)

"-There are plenty of newspapers to choose from which don't have any bare female nipples in them"

But the ones with the sexualised and submissive objectified women can't be chosen against - they intrude whether you buy them or not.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 14/02/2013 23:24

Choices cannot be divorced from the social contenxt in which they are made. feminists do not seek to deprive women of choice. Feminists seek to build a society in which the "choice" to turn yourself into a sexual commodity isn't one that it occurs to anyone to make, because it isn' prurient, sexually repressive, or inclined to treat women as objects.
Way to miss the point, zippy

LineRunner · 14/02/2013 23:21

If you think feminism should allow you to believe the same old patriarchal beliefs then you really need to invest in a dictionary.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 14/02/2013 23:21

And because it's always worth linking in a privilege discussion:

Lowest Difficulty Setting

Zippy1111 · 14/02/2013 23:19

But if women are making choices for themselves, how is that patriarchal?

Don't you think women should be able to continue to make choices with their own body? Or do you think it best if other women make choices for them?

"Feminism is about giving women choice, unless of course it's a choice most feminists don't agree with in which case we will make choices for them"

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 14/02/2013 23:18

"Isn't feminism about choice?"
Perhaps it is, if you're an appallingly superficial person who actually knows nothing about it
Apologies for impatience

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub · 14/02/2013 23:18

Jack

Some MN stories that might inform your view on how common sexual assaults are:

Sexual assaults thread

LineRunner · 14/02/2013 23:13

Feminism isn't about giving the patriarchy a choice to continue itself.

Zippy1111 · 14/02/2013 23:07

Here are my thoughts on page 3:

-All the models are well paid consenting adults

-The models have made that choice to make money with their body. Isn't feminism about choice? Even if it's a choice that not every woman might agree with?

-There are plenty of newspapers to choose from which don't have any bare female nipples in them

ashesgirl · 14/02/2013 19:14

Understand what you are saying but it would be fascinating to hear your wife's views, genuinely. There's no need to go off anywhere else.

LineRunner · 14/02/2013 19:02

jack I think you are being a little hard on yourself there. I wouldn't say you have been 'confrontational' at all.

I'm sure your wife could contribute here quite comfortably.

jackburton · 14/02/2013 18:51

"why don't you ask your wife to come on here and review the discussion?"

Naturally she's been following the discussion, she's a big Mumsnet fan. However, while I can carry on conversations that are this confrontational I'm not sure she is comfortable with them, and frankly I think it would tend to make the conversation even more personal and even less about the issues being discussed. Although I would love to keep talking about this and have found many of the points raised to be very interesting, I think it would be useful for me to read some of the books I have ordered and the reports that have been mentioned. "Living Dolls" in particular arrived today. I'm sorry if people have been offended by my posts, I realise that this discussion can be offensive to some people. Hopefully at least some of you feel that this is a way to explain your position to a man who would not have heard it otherwise. Since my first post I have found this site (finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/where-to-start/how-to-use-this-blog/) which I think may be more appropriate for these discussions and where I hope to continue asking about these issues once I have done more research.

Thank you for your patience,

JackBurton

OP posts:
ashesgirl · 14/02/2013 16:29

Good idea, ncg

namechangeguy · 14/02/2013 16:11

Jack, why don't you ask your wife to come on here and review the discussion? It would be interesting to see what she makes of it so far, and I believe it was her idea for you to post on here.

sashh · 14/02/2013 13:24

I have not experienced any women fighting for my approval.

How about Jordan?

Do you really think her business is based on women?
What do you think the feud with Jodie Marsh is if it isn't a couple of women fighting for your approval?

Do you want a big, big example of 'the patriachy' from today?

A young professional woman was murdered in South Africa in the early hours of this morning. You would think her name would make headlines. It doesn't.

The headlines are all about the person accused of her murder, there have been quotes that 'everyone is rallying arouns' the suspected murderer.

Both the killer (there seems little doubt who he is) and the now deceased were / are both well kown internationly.

If a woman's murder is only reported in connection to her killer don't you think there is a problem?

RIP Reeva Steenkamp.

ashesgirl · 14/02/2013 08:10

Good points bubbles. It's the sheer ordinariness of its presence that is a major issue

BubblesOfBliss · 13/02/2013 22:55

ashesgirl "People don't keep it to themselves."

I know - it seems ridiculous to imagine that a ubiquitous throwaway 20p tabloid- published and distributed every day to every newsagent in the country, bought by people with families, bought for the customers in chippies and cafes, discarded on benches and buses, read on lunchbreaks and in waiting rooms..... is going to be something that you can 'encourage people to keep to themselves'.

Putting the lack of understanding of the harmful attitudes promoted by Page 3 to one side- could you think of a less practical solution? I don't think I can.

LineRunner · 13/02/2013 22:44

'another' fascinating discussion? Could you signpost the other one(s), please? I'd love to read them.