Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

Yes, Freya, it IS for male approval. Never said it wasn't. We have biological urges after all. nothing wrong with that. I just think there are other ways to find a mate, rather than putting "all your wares on display" as it were.

And for posters who get all prickly when prostitutes are mentioned, the way a sex worker dresses hasn't changed all that remarkably over the decades. Its a recognised social construct. When such fashions spill over into mainstream fashion, it IS bound to raise a few eyebrows.

I come at it from a purely aesthetic POV. Boobs spilling over do not LOOK good. That is all. To misquote, "I really hate what you are wearing, but I will defend to the death your right to wear it." Just because I dont relish this kind of look doesnt mean I am a victim-blaming, rape apologist.

Why would more choice lead to greater individuality? Most people choose to dress as part of a sub group who all dress the same way. Whether somebody dresses in a way that they consider to be fashionable, sexy, classy, feminine, masculine, young, middle aged, bohemian or whatever, it doesn't mean you are better than anybody else or resisting pressure more than anyone else. You are just conforming to a different subgroup.

I can see that a women wearing very masculine clothes is in some way challenging sexism, but everyone other woman is performing femininity with their clothing choices, which is not a big deal but nor is it a feminist act. Attempting to look 'classy' and deliberately trying to 'leave something to the imagination' is no more or less doing something for male approval than looking sexy is.

That is really well put Amanda.

Dressing more demurely and censoring oneself might be a useful strategy for surviving within the patriarchy but no matter how uncomfortable you feel about seeing young girls trotting about town showing yards of flesh, or how ill advised you feel it is to make the choice to dress that way, making sure you are on the right side of the madonna/whore dictomy is not a feminist act; finding ways to mould yourself into naicer wife material is not a feminist act.

I'm so glad it was more docks, big black opaque tights, jeans and then grungy look when I was out and about years ago. I couldn't cope with today's fashions. I never, ever thought heels would ever become the uniform of the day again and much higher than ever. When they started making a come back, I truly thought women wouldn't fall for that again, but they did.

Yes, Abigail, you say "women are being told..."Told by who?? The media? Peers? I still think if enough individual women make a difference, something can happen. Young women nowadays have too much of a herd mentality, which is a bit depressing.

I do agree with you, male oppression is a stifling reality, however demurely women dress. But women willingly baring so much flesh, doesn't sit comfortably with me. I am of the old school mentality, "Leave something to the imagination" I am "only"35, by the way

You make some good points SilentSplendidSun, but you aren't answering the questions you ask.

"If we had real choice, there would be an explosion of individuality out there." Absolutely. Choice is not made in a vacuum. We don't have free choice. The bare flesh is heavily marketed as the fashion for women. As is seeking men and male approval. Everywhere we look women are being told that their worth is in what they look like and their relationship to men.

How individual women dress is not going dent that. Even if fashion did an about face and baggy t-shirts and jeans with slip-on shoes were all the rage, it would not change the fact that a woman's worth is measured by what she looks like, not what she does. And it certainly isn't going to make a dent into male oppression and male violence over women. Insisting women wear something else is just another form of oppression. And the OP is playing right into that.

I feel for you, OP. i really do. Most of the replies to your post have been knee-jerk reactions along the lines of "you what??"

FWIW, I agree with you. Women don't need to look so tarty. Whatever happened to classy? For everyone who says, "it's a woman's choice to look however she wants to," why is that young women choose, without fail, the platform shoes, mini skirt, long hair look? If we had real choice, there would be an explosion of individuality out there.

"People dress in whatever they feel comfortable and confident in." And that look happenes to be miles of flesh on show? That in itself, rings alarm bells for me.

And it doesn't matter if you have a degree and various jobs and you are a feminist. If you want some action, aka SGB, you'd better get out that corset top. See, it all comes back to attracting men and male approval. Why doesnt someone try this experiment? Sleek jeans, a nice eye-catching top, sensible heels and see if you can still pull...

SGB, you jammy thing!

Well I went out on Friday night in skin-tight shimmery leggings, heels and a corset top, and pulled a man half my age. Which was great fun.

I am also a feminist, with a degree and various jobs. I see no contradiction.

Neither dim nor kept but I did once wear hot pants. I don't think you can tell IQ by evaluating peoples clothing choices.

It is to me! Sorry. Thought it was quite a tiny gap.

Yes, Mitchy. That's hardly news, is it?

Husband was really short changed then poor sod. Kept woman who definitely hides her light under a bushel. he can only dream of hot pants.

JustA - do they really?

Holy shit Xenia. That's a pretty bold statement to make, considering women do far better than men educationally.

ooh, maybe wealthy men don't go in for tangerine queens in hot pants!

It's the main currency most women have, their sexual currency. They will never earn much. Average IQ of 100. Probably few GCSEs, so the best way to get on and have a better life is dress in a way to attract a man who will keep them. There are plenty of kept women on mumsnet. They did not gain that "status" by hiding their light under a bushel.

I don't get what 50 Shades hass to do with it.

I mean, maybe they were standing about miserable as hell, but what does that have to do with how they were dressed? I see plenty of miserable bastards wearing all sorts of stuff.

No you misunderstand what I was trying to say/ask, at least. You stated that women were the ones that neede to change their gender roles or stereotypes. Presumably you said that because you think those roles and stereotypes are oppressive to women? Male violence is upholds this oppression.

So do you think women changing their dress style (or indeed attitude) is going to stop male violence? If so, why?

I have to admit to jumping straight to end of this thread, reading the first and last pages. Because I went out on Saturday night and had a very similar experience, but my take on it was completely different.

I was in a pub to meet up with a bunch of mates as we were all going to a party together. It's a dive, this pub, but it's local. Definitely not the sort of place where punters dress up.

We were sitting, thinking about leaving, when there was a sudden mass influx of about 30 people in total. Seems it was someone's birthday and they'd all arrived together. The whole lot arrived in about 15 minutes. God only knows how they synchronised that.

I guess 6 or so were young women. And they looked astounding! Their heels were astonishingly high, and their hair was a mix of Amy Winehouse, Cheryl Cole and a young Brigitte Bardot. Their clothes were tiny and skintight. Their make up was extensive, perfect and very heavy. The main effect in the context of where we all were was that they were massively overdressed. They couldn't have been more unsuitably dressed for this downmarket little boozer if they'd turned up in ballgowns. Over the top just doesn't cover it.

I said to my friend "Let's work out an amateur sociology theory about these girls" and we watched them, which was easy, as they made a point of ignoring us. The older women and men and the lads weren't done up in any noticeable way. In fact some of them were pretty scruffy. None of them was even vaguely as stylish as the young women.

We decided that it was all about competition. None of the girls seemed to give two hoots what the boys were thinking. They didn't seem to interact with the boys, or the older men. We decided they cared only about each other. I think it must be a product of magazines like Closer and reality TV stuff, like the Only Way is Essex. I mean the idea that women should look like this.

The girls did everything together, going to the loo, using the juke box. They were very unfriendly to the women in our little group. Stared right through us with hard eyes from the moment they walked in. It seemed that to them other women were rivals, with the whole dressing up business about some female pecking order. It was astonishing, and rather horrifying, particularly the hostility. My male friend said it was just like peacocks, only in reverse.

I know quite a few young women because I have teenage sons, and none of them go in for this sort of display. I think it's a particular subculture, like goths, etc. Dunno if there's a name for it, but it's quite disconcerting.

You actually think women are the only ones who need to change gender roles/stereotyping?? Seriously?? I'm sorry...I have lived a somewhat sheltered life and all but even I can see how much damage is caused by males living up (down) to male stereotyps. Far more than is caused by women in skirts drinking in a bar and minding their own business.

I am starting to think the OP was a wind up.

Or that they would have an effect on male violence? Do you think them putting a pair of trousers on (or whatever) will stop men raping us?

And you seriously think that what a few young lassies choose to wear for a night out on the lash any impact on the 30% gender pay gap?

Ha ha ha...