Been out. It's not pretty out there. My feminist views are challenged tonight.

Your OP said that the men did not react. You said there was barely any notable reaction from them. The person judging these women is you, and you can change that.

I am sure there are extremes of dress that would get a reaction because people are not used to it, but people generally are used to the kind of clothes you describe, in certain bars and clubs in certain towns.

" I own a pair of six inch gold heels which I will wear with a dress for my 39th birthday. I am not averse to glamming up. But the difference is I will be going out with the intention of looking my male (and female) contemporaries in the eye and conversing with them all evening as an equal. "

and will you be doing that with strangers or just the people you know? because it's entirely possible that the people you saw last night, went out to socialise with their friends and that what you saw was exactly that. them socialising with their friends. there is no rule that people must go out and talk with strangers. i certainly dont approach strangers and strike up a conversation to let them know my level of intelligience or where i stand on the death penalty or animal cruelty.

How is me calling a wanker a wanker double standards? Judging someone for their insulting behaviour is not like judging someone for their clothes.

They didn't look like prostitutes. Prostitutes don't dress like that.

Men don't owe me shit, but they're not getting any respect/attention/conversation/2nd thought from me unless they respect me. If someone judges me for my clothes/whatever, they are dead to me.

'Many posters here sound like men haters to me'

You jumped the shark

It's not a double standard. The man is being judged for making nasty remarks about a person; the woman is being judged based on what she is wearing. It isn't very nice to call people wanky or slutty, but one of those people being judged is being unpleasant while the other is not.

I don't always want to converse with men. I am quite happy to sometimes just socialise with women. I don't feel that I am being treated less equally because of it.

Er, who's trying to sabotage the thread? We're discussing it. Most of us are just aghast that you're being so horrible about women.

You ARE victim blaming. You are saying that if women get dressed up like that and then they're not respect it's THEIR FAULT.

No. It is the fault of the sort of wanky man who can't see that a glamourously dressed women is worthy of respect, like oohlala's friend up there.

I'm not changing how I dress in order to get respect for men. How is THAT feminism?

Well, I don't find the look you describe particularly compelling, OP, but I don't think judging the women you met on the basis of their dress choices is particularly female friendly response. When confronted by similar scenes I'm moved to think that it's not them failing feminism so much as feminism not being a completed project. If lots of smart women still find confidence in, and identity with, signalling (hetro)sexual availability then the notion that women are liberated is a bit strange. I always find the 'choice' argument a bit of a red herring because it occludes from view the way that choices don't happen in a vacuum; choices about dress are being made in the context of what we assume are important aspects of social relationships. And to the extent we haven't 'chosen' dominant attitudes to those relationships, we aren't fully 'choosing' from an objective or neutral position - rather we are choosing either to participate or not. We haven't chosen whether or not those particular kinds of social relationships are up for negotiation in that way.

"They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out."

The word "stereotyping" springs to mind.

the only reason you couldn't win mini was if your prize is the attention of a judgemental man.

you can win. you win by not dressing to 'win' the approval of another person but by dressing in a way YOU feel comfortable. you win be deciding that only your own approval is valid and that any person who would judge as being less of a human for having less fabric on your body isn't the prize you want.

but, yes, if you are dressing for the approval of men, you are right you wont win.

oohlaalaa your male friend sounds lovely.

FreyaSnow, you might be right, I don't know many women who are doing the whole Essex look. I used to wear short skirts albeit with dms. I just think that somehow young women seem to have fewer choices now not more. And I agree men will judge what ever you wear. Too fat, too thin, too blonde, too dark, too tall, too short, too flat chested, too bumpy, prude or whore. Can't win.

It sounds like you went to a foul, provincial, meat-market nightclub. That is how women dress in those places. Had you gone to a library, a gym, the Royal Enclosure at Ascot or a dry ski slop, you would see women dressed appropriately for those environments.

Yes, young women dress like absolute slags when going clubbing, but it's not a new thing, nor is it reflective of women in general or even of young women in general.

Feminism isn't all about choice, but neither is it about making assumptions about women based on what they wear.

"but why CHOOSE to look like little fuck toys if you don't have to?"

I thought feminism was about choice? If you were a true feminist you would respect their decision to dress like "little fuck toys"?

"They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out."

do you know many prostitutes?

"I was always told you either have boobs or legs on display, never both."

who told you this and why did you accept someone else's rules for how you should dress?

"I recall a male friend once describing a tartily dressed female friend of mine, having just briefly introduced them, as "looks like she's gagging for it" (female friend out of earshot at this point). Personally, not a nice way to be described. "

i'm in shock that you decided that your female friend was responsible for what you disgusting male friend (why is he still a friend??) said about her? what a horrible person to give any of your time or respect to.

Mitchy - sausage butties and salad. Was very nice.

OLL, unpleasant men will make sexual remarks about women in all types of dress outside of earshot. There are plenty of men who will make sexual remarks about some kind of porn librarian or school teacher fantasy when women are dressed demurely. There really isn't a way of dressing that gets you out of that kind of misogyny; the only way of avoiding it as much as possible is to not spend time with men like that.

again mini it depends where you go. in the bar i go to most regularly, it is completely mixed. there is no division at all of the sexes. but, and i think this is important, it is a 'regulars' sort of place where everyone alread knows pretty much everyone who walks through the door and it isn't odd to arrive with a group of friends and spend the rest of the evening circling the place catching up with everyone else in there because you know them all aswell. in other bars in the town i might know 3/4 people who walk through the door in a whole night and so i'm not going to be seen mixing with lots of different people as i dont know them. as i said, i dont go out to pull, i go out to have a drink and a laugh with friends with a bit of good music in the background. and i cant think of a time ever (apart from a hen night) when i went out in just a group of girls. it has always been a mixed group.

not everyone that goes out, goes out to pull, not everyone who goes out is straight and not everyone who goes out is single (and so looking to attract a partner)

I'm trying to get my head around how it is okay, preferable even, to want to spend time with non-conformist people, to the extent that people on here are having to speculate on the intentions and lives of women who dress in a conventionally 'sexy' style because you don't seem to know any of them. It isn't as if there are hardly any of them and it is just coincidence they're outside of who you personally know. Yet it is not okay for some women and men to want to socialise with their own gender?

Men and women spend time together all the time in lots of different situations; if they want to go out to clubs or pubs in separate groups, it doesn't mean they don't interact at all. If I was going out with my SIL and friends in an all woman group to a club, it doesn't mean we won't meet up with my brother and male family members earlier or later, or that we don't go out together to other venues or events altogether at other times.

I wouldn't know on the interaction with men and women.

I'm 30, and wore short skirts and high heels as a teenager, and early 20s. It wasn't all that long ago. However I think young women today are dressing more provocatively, and I don't find it attractive. They look like prostitutes, with those rediculously high heel shoes and everything hanging out. I was always told you either have boobs or legs on display, never both.

I'm not saying we should judge them for what they wear, or that they are unintelligent, I just wish 'demure' would come back in fashion, a la Audrey Hepburn.

I recall a male friend once describing a tartily dressed female friend of mine, having just briefly introduced them, as "looks like she's gagging for it" (female friend out of earshot at this point). Personally, not a nice way to be described.

hi lurcio, I had onion bhajees (bhajis? How do you spell it?) for lunch. I almost choked on one laughing at 'little fuck toys' but then I got to the end and wasn't sure if the thread was a spoof or not .

What did you have?