Joanna Lumley says don't go out and get drunk...

Woodenpeg, my love, you're not accountable for their actions. They chose to rape.

One of my friends was raped, stone cold sober, at 6.00pm, coming home from lectures, my two close calls were on occasions when the rape apology industry would say I'd done the responsible and sensible thing in getting a man to walk me home (I was sober on both occasions) - in each case, it was the man in a position of trust, the man I thought I knew, not some stranger leaping out of a dark alley, who tried to coerce me into having sex when I didn't want to.

In our culture, going out for a few drinks is perfectly normal behaviour. Sometimes people have the rotten, bad luck to be raped after this perfectly normal behaviour. They also get raped while engaged in other perfectly normal behaviour - walking home from lectures, going out jogging, getting taxis. And even in cultures which severly or totally curtail women's freedom of movement and action (Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan), women still get raped. Rape happens because some men think they're entitled to have sex without a woman's consent, because they don't think women are human beings (and by thinking this, as far as I'm concerned, the men concerned have opted out of the human race and should be locked up and the key thrown away). You had the misfortune to encounter two men who had this attitude - and it could have happened to you no matter what you were doing.

I hope finding the enormous courage to talk about it here is part of the healing process for you, and you can start to talk about it in real life, and get the reassurance you need to accept that it wasn't your fault.

I don't know, wooden, and I wish I did.

Do you want to talk about it? Because lots of women on here are amazing at talking this stuff through, I've heard them do it.

How to Prevent Rape

If a woman is drunk, don?t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don?t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don?t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don?t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don?t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you?re still hung up on, don?t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don?t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don?t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don?t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don?t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don?t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don?t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don?t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don?t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching TV, don?t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don?t rape her.
If your friend thinks it?s okay to rape someone, tell him it?s not, and that he?s not your friend.
If your ?friend? tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there?s an unconscious woman upstairs and it?s your turn, don?t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he?s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it?s not okay to rape someone.
Don?t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don?t imply that she could have avoided it if she?d only done/not done x.
Don?t imply that it?s in any way her fault.
Don?t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he ?got some? with the drunk girl.

LRD, Amanda - how do I deal with that? It feels like I'm free falling...

The panic is huge.

Saying 'it might not have happened if I'd not been so drunk' is assuming that your behaviour changes according to circumstances, but other people's doesn't. That just doesn't make sense.

You do not know what would have happened had you not been drunk.

You do not know whether or not some rapist would have targeted you anyway. A huge number of perfectly sober women are raped every year in the UK. You just can't say whether or it would have made a difference.

You can know that the one thing that made this rape happen - for certain - was someone deciding to rape you. Therefore, they are to blame. Not you.

Yes, you have to be accountable for your actions. If you get so drunk you lose your wallet, or fall into the canal, there is an element to which you are culpable in what happened.

That is not the same as rape. If you hadn't encountered rapists, you wouldn't have been raped.

Yes, it is true to say that you may not have put yourself in a particular situation if you weren't horribly drunk. But if you had been horribly drunk and put yourself in that situation and you hadn't been in the presence of rapists it would not have happened. It isn't like falling int he canal, someone else had to commit a crime towards you for it to happen.

These can be hard things to think about, but if you have been carrying guilt around for a long time it could be cathartic in the long run. Have you thought about getting some help?

Oh, love. No, of course you are not to blame. Please don't feel that.

You have no reason to be ashamed. Someone else decided to hurt you. That is never going to have been your fault.

Woodenpeg You are not to blame. You did nothing wrong.

I'm very scared all of a sudden.

In my situation; it wouldn't of happened if I hadn't got so drunk - would it? I am so ashamed...

Oh god. I feel sick. But that's the truth isn't it? My actions have to be accountable no? I'm not to be excused am I?? Where these men always rapists?

Perhaps for another thread. Sorry.

As an aside, Marks and Spencer must be going absolutely bonkers as they had booked Lumley to talk about donating old clothes to charity whenever you buy new ones. Worthy cause totally ignored because Lumley is a rape apologist.

onemore - no worries, I try to blank him out of my mind too. And his cronies.

I'm sorry, I did misread.

I'm afraid I still think my point stands.

I get that you don't, but I don't think this is 'constructive' advice.

You seem to think people pick up on rape myths for kicks, or out of some sense of pedantry, and I really don't think that is true at all.

LRD I didn't replace "rape" with "take advantage of" -- the latter phrase is in both Lumley's quote and my paraphrase of it. I replaced "rape" with "pick a fight" and I did that with the intention that the replacement would be observed and convey my feeling that men and women should be advised equally about crime and that women shouldn't be advised about it less than men just because one of the relevant crimes is rape. What I mean is, it is not the case that advice in relation to rape constitutes rape apology/victim blaming if precisely the same advice about, e.g. non-sexual violent assault (picking a fight") doesn't constitute victim-blaming. I know there is much victim blaming out there in relation specifically to the rape of women, and I abhor it of course; I just don't like the way that some constructive advice is misdescribed as rape apology. Apart from anything else it is terribly terribly offensive. I don't for a moment think that Lumley is a rape apologist and if I were her I would find these sorts of accusations crushing. There is a problem that young men are advised about crime way less frequently than young women, but it is a leap from that to saying that a particular piece of advice is rape apology.

Sorry to come back to something so sterile as picking over words when the convo has moved on but you have misread what I said and obviously have something in mind about my use of words that you find offensive.

It isn't hard.

If there's no consent it's rape.
If you're too drunk to give consent it's rape
If you're unconscious, it's rape.

TheJoyfulPuddlejumper Yes, I had missed that. The only consolation is that News of his comments quickly spread on social media, prompting anger, disgust and calls for Daming's candidature for the Supreme Court to be shot down and good job, too. I'm sorry your friend at the time was a rapist.

We need more of the don't be that guy adverts I think.

LRD oh, the anti-abortionist twat. Sorry, I suppose I meant the majority of people who aren't complete idiots.

Woodenpeg - I am so sorry for what happened to you. That was rape.

I think sometimes (often) people get consent the wrong way round. Women don't exist in a perpetual state of consent unless they say no. It is a man's responsibility to ensure that he has active consent before sex. Rape apologists try to scaremonger this by making jokes about getting it in writing. That is all a smokescreen. And it makes victims feel that they weren't raped. That somehow it is their fault.

I've never talked about it. Ever.

oh god.

Wooden peg, I am sorry that happened to you.

If you are too drunk to consent then you did not consent, those men did not have your consent and it would fall into the definition of rape.

If I hadn't been so drunk, I wouldn't have put myself in a position to be sexually abused by two men. They thought I was 'easy'. They had sex with me, I did not consent, I never reported it. I can't call it rape, rape it something different in my mind. Like so many others say; it has nothing to do with the victim...

It wont stop rapists raping, but it might stop women falling out of pubs with no clue who could 'take them home'.

I think the point she was trying to make is that women make themselves more vulnerable by being insensible after a night out. A woman who is sober is much less likely to make a bad decision or put herself in a dangerous situation than one who's faculties have been muddled by drink. I doubt she's saying 'It's your fault', but it's hardly rocket science to urge young women to take better care of themselves in order to protect themselves from the predators that are, unfortunately, out there.

JoyfulPuddleJumper - hope you are ok.

Hope you are ok Joyful - see you later.

H

Well, apologies, as this is not the first time I have posted this, but I think it has never been more apposite:

Don?t go out and get drunk, it could lead to you getting raped. Also, don?t have sex with someone because it could get you raped by someone they know. Don?t be young, that could definitely get you raped. While we?re at it, especially don?t be a child, that could really get you raped. Don?t be older either, that can get you raped. Don?t be living in a nursing home; women get raped there. In fact, what are you even doing in an establishment like that, are you asking for it? Don?t be single; single girls are sluts. Sluts get themselves raped. Don?t be married either or you could get raped by your husband. Don?t go jogging, that is just irresponsible. Don?t go to carparks, that can get you raped. And really don?t go jogging in a carpark, that is like so going to get you raped. Don?t go to public toilets, that can lead to rape. Don?t be dying; dying women get raped. Don?t ever be unconscious for any reason whatsoever, you?ll get yourself raped. Don?t be injured either. Raped. Avoid being physically disabled. Raped. And particularly avoid being intellectually disabled. You couldn?t get yourself more raped. Don?t go out alone, that is dangerous and you could get raped. But don?t accept lifts either; that is just asking for trouble. Don?t ever be naked, it could get you raped. Don?t wear clothing in which I could imagine you naked, that could get you raped. Don?t wear short skirts, they attract rape. Don?t wear baggy clothing or pyjamas or hospital gowns or a hijab either, women get raped in all those too. Don?t have a father, brother, uncle or grandfather. You could get raped by one of them. And oh my god, don?t even think about having a step-father. So raped. Don?t be ugly or you could deserve rape. Don?t be beautiful, you will be too tempting. Don?t flirt with men, this can get you raped. Don?t be rude to men either ? playing with fire. Don?t take public transport. Raped. Don?t drive your own car, what if someone hid in the back seat, you could get raped. Don?t sell sex or anything close to it. Raped, raped, raped. Don?t be mistaken for someone who might sell sex. Obviously, you would get raped. Don?t be a soldier, a waitress, a teacher, a police officer, or a hairdresser. All these women can get raped, sometimes by their professional colleagues. Don?t dance, it could lead to you getting raped. Don?t relax, what if it made you look like you wanted it. Don?t be stupid, that will surely get you raped. Don?t be naive, you?ll deserve what comes to you. Don?t be adventurous, that is being stupid and stupid women get raped. Don?t be silent, who can be expected to know you didn?t want to be raped. Don?t be intimidated, that can signal weakness and will get you raped. Don?t be trusting, don?t be in awe, don?t be flattered by anyone ? that could so get you raped. Especially don?t be female, that could really get you raped, although being male could get you raped too, so don?t do that either. And don?t be interesex or trans, people will think rape is for your own good.

It's from blue milk here