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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Chat thread - come chat, rant, or celebrate, here!

433 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/01/2013 22:48

With thanks to the lovely timetosmile - here's the new and rejuvenated Chat Thread.

Space to yak on, rant, post any of the good and bad stuff ... just basically any chat that you don't feel fits into a specific post. With a side order of reclaiming the word 'gossip'.

OP posts:
UptoapointLordCopper · 05/08/2013 19:59

Can I bump this or is it bad etiquette to bump something this old?

UptoapointLordCopper · 28/06/2013 11:47

Hello! Quiet here!

Just written long letter to John Lewis about toys "for boys" and "for girls" on their website...

UptoapointLordCopper · 22/06/2013 09:04

It is time for more John Stuart Mill. Grin

After saying why the subjection of women was to be abhorred, and why it was a bad thing, and why it would be difficult to overcome (see earlier post somewhere), he went on to talk about the "modern, civilised" society, which had the feature that one was not born in one's place and had no chance to change status, like in the bad old days. Hence this is another injustice: if we believed in this principle, that an individual ought to be able to better his/her circumstances, then "we ought to act as if we believed it", and "not to ordain that to be born a girl instead of a boy, ... shall decide one's position all through life".

And one of my favourite quotes: "In all things of any difficulty and importance, those who can do them well are fewer than the need, even with the most unrestricted latitude of choice: and any limitation of the field of selection deprives society of some chances of being served by the competent, without ever saving it from the incompetent."

And a nice positive statement: "... nobody asks for protective duties and bounties in favour of women; it is only asked that the present bounties and protective duties in favour of men should be recalled." How about that?

And there was a lot more rather sarky comments about what men say they want for women and what they really want, which I enjoyed a lot. So more later!

TheDoctrineOfAllan · 16/06/2013 23:30

No, I wouldn't view DH as weak.

I may be overcompensating because the vast majority of men I know professionally never mention their wives in that kind of context.

NicholasTeakozy · 16/06/2013 19:25

Would you view your DH as weak if he said to someone "hang on, I need to discuss this with my wife first"? I don't view it as weakness, I see it as knowing you're in a partnership.

I do understand where you're coming from here. You're looking at the problem from a feminist perspective, which is fine if all the money you need to invest in this venture is yours, but if it's joint money (which it should be) then it should be a joint decision.

TheDoctrineOfAllan · 15/06/2013 21:53

NT, I think I am maybe assuming this man doesn't discuss with his DW! Yes my DH would discuss with me.

I think it feels weak because it sounds like "hang on, I'll ask my husband..."

UptoapointLordCopper · 15/06/2013 21:28

It's only fair to discuss it with your DH, I think. Why do you think you feel "weak"?

NicholasTeakozy · 15/06/2013 20:56

It involves 'financial risk', therefore it's essential to discuss it. Unless of course your DH makes this type of decision without consulting you, in which case ignore me. :)

TheDoctrineOfAllan · 15/06/2013 20:20

I am struggling with something.

I have been asked by a man I know to work on a new business with him. As it involves taking financial risk, I feel I need to discuss with DH quite extensively but equally I feel "weak" saying so. I'm not sure why.

UptoapointLordCopper · 14/06/2013 09:10

I posted in the Australian thread but may as well post it here too:

Aussie army chief having a go at misogynists.

UptoapointLordCopper · 10/06/2013 07:28

LRD my posts are not quotation but paraphrase. JSM more eloquent than me. And more sarcastic... But more later!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 10/06/2013 00:30

Just reading these last few posts and nodding along! Smile

Thanks for the quotations.

OP posts:
UptoapointLordCopper · 09/06/2013 12:45

Just read about the matchwomen in the big issue. Didn't know about them at all.

TheDoctrineOfAllan · 09/06/2013 09:43

It sounds very clear sighted. Legacy of the rule of force is a good phrase.

UptoapointLordCopper · 09/06/2013 09:37

OK - I've read the first chapter of The Subjection of Women. Has anyone read that? I was surprised at how strongly-worded it was. So the context is a bit narrower, dealing with the Victorian legal subjection of women. But the words are strong. Basically,

  1. The subjection of women is to be abhorred because it is a legacy of the rule of force. In civilised society we recognise that the rule of force is not a good thing, and we have dismantled most of such legacy, including slavery. But we are still subjecting women to this legacy.

  2. The subjection of women is in some ways worse than slavery, because a slave is not required to feel affection for his/her master. Society makes sure that women are slaves, not just by legal constructs, but it makes sure that women will grow up to be slaves by educating them, pruning away all that is "undesirable", so that they will believe that their prime objective in life is to make their masters happy. Shock

(Sorry about the present tense...)

He also talked about why equality will be difficult to achieve - in the old feudal rule-of-force society, only very few are in power, and the majority could see that it would probably be quite nice not to be lorded over, so they could band together and do something. But for women, essentially every man had a piece of fiefdom that he could lord over, and that was very nice indeed and no one would likely put in too much to change. And you effectively segregate the women, they were not free to socialise, to band together.

More later, if anyone is interested ... There is also a statement of positive action (not positive discrimination). It all sounds very modern to me...

UptoapointLordCopper · 08/06/2013 10:25

Well done NT's DDs. :)

LRD I don't mind trolls at all. They are so obvious. It's the women being biologically programmed to like pooey nappies and screaming tantrums and have primeval urges to be doormats (what did they want to be before doormats were invented? Hmm) that really gets me on here. In RL it's the women-think-differently and "I/my dd thinks like this because I'm/she's a woman/girl" brigade that gives me the rage. But there's no getting away from it. We'll live to fight another day. :) We will fight them on MN, we will fight them in RL, etc etc...

NicholasTeakozy · 07/06/2013 22:41

Doctrine :o Are you on the Church Of Allan thread? I can't believe so many people laughed over a typo.

In other news, my DDs have both decided they're feminists after we had a talk about what they want and how they want to be perceived. I'm so chuffed about that. Feminism needs to attract the young.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 07/06/2013 21:37

The trolls are making me feel very, very productive. Every time they post I think 'fuck it' and go write a bit more.

It's the ordinary people in normal life who're getting to me atm.

However, this is a little oasis of peace.

OP posts:
TheDoctrineOfAllan · 07/06/2013 21:03
Smile
NicholasTeakozy · 07/06/2013 21:02

Mind if I join? On the subject of toys, I bought my DGD a toy the other week. A red toy car that makes different noises and that. She loves it and keeps going to the kitchen where the floor is vinyl instead of carpet so she can push it around more easily. She's 16 months old and just lovely. :)

TheDoctrineOfAllan · 07/06/2013 19:52

Simone, that looks horrible from the blurb and the cover, was it really upsetting Sad?

UptoapointLordCopper · 07/06/2013 19:48

Yes, I've seen. V. tedious, some of them.

But I'm a bit stuck on The Subjection of Women, so no deep profound discussion yet which I threatened promised in an earlier post ...

TheDoctrineOfAllan · 07/06/2013 19:26

Trolls to report, new cults to join, LordC

UptoapointLordCopper · 07/06/2013 19:09

Bump.

Gone quiet here!

S1m0ne · 27/05/2013 20:22

My 15 yo has decided she's a feminist!
I was disturbed to find her reading a graphic book about rape on her Kindle at the weekend.
Trying to be resonable I downloaded it myself....and now I want to shout about it!

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CXAH1V6