Would anyone like a thread to talk about feminism and body image?

Yes AmandaPayne that's pretty much what I meant. Having hairy legs or armpits will really mark a woman out as different. Most people want to fit in, and not go against the norm, and as hairlessness has been the norm for so long it is not going to change anytime soon.

MMMarmite I find having a partner who thinks you are gorgeous is the best boost to body image. You can acknowledge each others 'flaws' while still finding each other totally beautiful.

What I have found also is that being a mum has made me far more practical about stuff. I was never a big high heels wearer, but in the office I sometimes did. I am tall, and if I was dealing with particularly difficult men (you know they type, won't listen to the opinion of a young woman, even if she is the expert on this area) I sometimes found that a pair of four inch heels could be useful. It is harder for that type of man to be dismissive of someone towering over them I found.

Anyway, I digress. I am currently a SAHM, but have also been a WOHM. In both cases I have found that having children made me move in terms of this stuff. I didn't have ages in the morning to blend two eyeshadows. Or if I did, it meant not joining DD for breakfast. You sometimes see people on hear moaning about 'letting themselves go', but I think in my case it has been quite healthy and, because it was gradual and instinctive, not painful to do. I'm still presentable and smart, but I naturally spend less time on the 'stuff'.

What things do you lot find improve your body image?

For me:

• I avoid adverts (adblocker installed, watch tv on record and then fast forward). - I spent a bit of time looking online at before and after photoshop pictures, it's amazing how big the differences are. Now when I see idealised images of women, I assume that they are photoshopped, and mentally add back in a few spots, wrinkles and extra flesh.
• I try to think of my body in terms of what it can do, rather than what it looks like. "These legs are strong, powerful, great for walking" rather than "these legs look rubbish in skinny jeans". It's harder at the moment because I can't do that much due to illness: disability makes your relationship to your body a lot more complex. But I think it's still an important point.
• I'm trying to give up mentioning weight and diet (apart from having detailed feminist discussions about them!). Until I tried to stop, I didn't realised just how often the topic comes up often in daily life, often in a jokey self-depreciating way. The constant mentions, always with the subtext 'thin is better', put so much pressure on everyone. So when offered another chocolate, I no longer say "No thanks, it's not worth the calories", I just say "no thanks". (And to myself, I say "your body will feel better with a good range of nutrients rather than chocolate only", rather than "too much chocolate will make you fat").

I kind of agree with RosyRoo - although obviously I can't speak for what she meant MMM. What I feel is that the ante has been upped for women so much in terms of presentation and grooming. What is 'normal' is unrecognisable from when I was a teenager in the 90s. So it is going to take a much bigger change to get back to something resembling 'normal self care' (if there is such a thing - the general standard of presentable and clean that men are held to). Also, the more hair removal, nails, etc at a high level of grooming are presented as the norm, the further from that norm a woman who doesn't do that is - it's a bigger jump for someone who has bought into it to accept. Which all makes it harder for that course to be changed.

Rosy - they have to be the right breasts too. You can't be a woman if you don't have the right breasts. I have large breasts. About a DD cup. However, they are natural, which means in a women in her thirties who has had children that they are mostly full at the bottom and they sag somewhat. They are not the pert DDs that schoolboys lust after. That s infuriating because it sends a message that just about any form of normal is not good enough. Very unhealthy.

LRD - I agree, a lot is compromise. To me, my appearance is a 'back burner' issue for my feminism. I try to focus on just being comfortable in my skin. And that does include lots of things, like shaving my legs if they will be on display, that wouldn't be necessary in a feminist utopia.

"I think we've gone to far down the body beautiful road to turn back now." I don't quite get what you mean by that, could you explain?

I think we've gone to far down the body beautiful road to turn back now. There is just no way that any more than a small handful of women are going to stop shaving or dying their hair. But it's good for everyone to know that they do have a choice, and that they don't have to do these things if they don't want to. That option is not usually presented to us.

Body image, and being comfortable in one's body, is I think a different issue again. I would say I am pretty happy, but that is always being undermined. For example, I have very small breasts, almost none. I have read so many articles about how a person with small breasts feels less than a woman, that they should get NHS surgery, that it is fine for teenagers to have boob jobs if it bothers them enough. And of course, a boob job is the first surgery for most male to female transsexuals. The message is, you cannot be a woman if you don't have large enough breasts. I find it all infuriating.

I'm so glad to have found this thread as the shaving issue has been bothering me for some time. It seems totally ridiculous that 'society' does not find adult women attractive and I've heard numerous words including repulsive used to describe hairy women.
Similarly, as other posters have described, my DH finds hairiness less attractive although would support any decision I made. I don't do make up or bikini line shaving but still do my underarms and legs occasionally.

What are the origins of the hairless lady? I've heard things about pre- pubescent/ young being found attractive but that seems totally absurd!

I absolutely agree that it's really important not to get into the 'she's a better feminist than me' type mindset - as LRD says this stuff is meant to be about making our lives better, not adding extra stress.

LRD, that is true, tbh as I am 43 I have rather forgotten that problem! I'm also probably politely best described as 'forceful' so personally I tended not to be overlooked/underestimated even in my 20s but I did see it as a real issue for my nicer quieter spoken/less spikey women colleagues (I used to work as a consulting economist, so a pretty male dominated environment).

I do think size makes a massive difference to the pressures put on you. I haven't shaved/worn makeup/high heels since I was a teenager so going on 25 years now, and though I dye my hair sometimes it is crimson & a very short crop so more a punky look. BUT I am only just over 5 foot, and very skinny, so somehow I think it is socially more acceptable - kind of as if no-one would think I was a bloke anyhow so it is 'allowed'.

I stopped shaving anything a bit over a year ago, and I felt pretty self-conscious for a couple of months but now I hardly think about it. In the past I'd have chosen a long-sleeved top if I hadn't shaved my armpits in a few days, now I can wear sleeveless whenever and not care.

I was persecuted very badly at school for having hairy legs. (italian heritage and an Italian mother who would NOT let me shave or remove the hair under ANY circumstances. The kids at school used to persecute me badly for it. Really bad bullying. I started having them waxed when i was 18. Now i have a leg and underarm wax when i can afford to. But i do have a professional cut and colour every 6 to 8 weeks. I also inherited going prematurely grey from my dad. My hair is now naturally almost white and i cant bear it. I get my legs waxed because i HATE shaving. Its too bloody time consuming.

feministefatale, I'm sorry that you feel so bad about this :( If it's partly that you're putting yourself under pressure to live the feminist ideal, or something, I think you should go easy on yourself - ultimately feminism is about making women's lives easier, so if not shaving is disproportionately difficult for you, I think it's fine to shave. It's rubbish that we live in a world where this has to be an issue in the first place though.

I live in an area that can be shorts year round. I am also a very large woman -nearly 6ft and heavy set but also (genuinely) large boned. I have always been made to feel "unfeminine" and manly..and just not good about my size so for me the leg hair thing is too much for me to take.

... I despise myself for it but I do feel bad with long leg hair and can't bring myself to go out of the house in shorts unshaven. I wish I didn't, and wish I had the brass ovaries to go out and be like "yeah, women have leg hair too" But I am just not there yet. I have given up on doing my eye brows it was a conscious decision- I don't want my little girl to see me plucking all the time. Surprisingly I actually quite liked the results. Although most recently I may be moving in to Alistair Darling territory so I may feel tempted to whip them in to shape soon. We will see.

Dh prefers my legs shaved he says he realizes it's not fair that women feel compelled to shave everything but like LRD's husband can't help how he feels. I let them go for a while and I was asking him about it later on and he said he felt them when we were, ahem, being intimate and I think it freaked him out a bit. It's ridiculous women have leg hair it shouldn't be considered a male attribute but it is now. We do see it that way.

I also have PCOS which makes me very hairy. and I have had laser hair removal on my face, it's helped me a great deal and I don't feel like I am being stared at for being the bearded lady. :( I am hairier in the face then is "normal" so hirsuteness is basically a side effect of PCOS, I justify this to myself that I am taking care of the side effect the way i would do any other side effect.

The summer in shorts part is what I'm wondering about. Why exactly do you shave in summer? Would you consider not shaving in summer too?

Yes, THIS ^^. I am also wondering what happens come summer, as I too have very thick dark hair.

MMMarmite, I am just like you, in that I feel very odd discussing this, in case it revolts people. And then I just feel sad and mad that normal, natural adult women would revolt people.

"only bother in summer because I live in shorts." The summer in shorts part is what I'm wondering about. Why exactly do you shave in summer? Would you consider not shaving in summer too?

"I think we put more pressure on ourselves (due to societal conditioning) than society puts on us." That's a very good point; I can think of instances in my own life where the pressure comes more from myself because of social conditioning, and other people don't actually care very much. It's really hard to tell though, cos sometimes people are actually judging you, and sometimes you just think they are.

My body confidence and my attitude to makeup/beauty practices have fluctuated over time. Sometimes, when I feel confident, it makes me want to experiment more with makeup and fashion. Sometimes, it goes the other way.

I do think that there is more pressure from external sources than there used to be. It cannot just be golden-ageism when I look at pictures of myself from the 90s, when it seems to have been socially acceptable for a 20something woman to turn up to a formal event in minimal makeup and a trouser suit. You can even see a difference on our wedding photos from 2000 - no-one is wearing fake tan, no-one has fake nails and I think only my mum has a salon updo. We look so much less "polished" than women in public do now, and I feel like I'm supposed to laugh wryly at our lack of "grooming" back then, instead of feel sad about it.

I'm just lazy, I don't bother shaving my legs at all in winter, and only bother in summer because I live in shorts. DP mentioned it once, but he agreed when I pointed out that nobody bloody sees my legs, so why bother? I dye my hair because my natural colour is boring, but don't bother sorting my roots out every week or whatever. Never plucked my eyebrows, rarely use make up or wear heels - and nobody notices. Honestly, I think we put more pressure on ourselves (due to societal conditioning) than society puts on us.

DP is also a hairy bear man :) I was on at him for ages to shave his beard off. He did for Movember, and I hated it. Odd how that works...

It's surprisingly tough, isn't it ?

I remember being admitted to casualty when I was younger and wouldn't let them roll up my trousers to examine me as I hadn't shaved my legs and was mortified. Even on entinox for the pain, I was more aware of the shame I would feel if someone say my hairy legs.

I hope I've come to my senses but I suspect the only difference now is that I would let them do the exam but still cringe inside.