Weight and appearance

The problem, mindosa, is when you start to generalise from your personal experience. So you and your husband prefer each other slimmer, nicely dressed, made up, etc. -- that's fine, but you seem to be saying that this is 'natural' or innate. It isn't. Everyone is different. My own DH honestly doesn't seem to care about my weight, and most of his spontaneous 'you're so beautiful' moments seem to come not after I've made a huge effort but at times when I think I look awful.

And there certainly are many cultures even today, even within Western societies, where being really thin is not prized. I spent most of my life in the US, in a city that's majority African-American, and the different expectations were very noticeable. I once lost 20 pounds and found all my white friends saying, You look great!, while all my black friends were saying, You look too damn skinny! There is even quantifiable evidence of this, as studies have shown that black women who are overweight have higher self-esteem than overweight white women (in the US).

OP -- would you ever consider going for CBT? I believe there are studies showing it's very helpful for losing weight, because it's all about tackling the emotional issues that lie behind it and changing negative thinking patterns. I think that might be a healthier approach than dieting or anything more direct, because the weight is less important than the emotional issues that are troubling you in several aspects of life (it sounds like).

Don't think any study has shown that negative health effects start at a BMI of less than 30 (that's over 13 stone for a 5'6" woman) which is 'obese' not 'overweight' - but you might have been using the words interchangeably?

Willing to stand corrected if this is not the case.

But being overweight seems to come up statistically like drinking, a little bit is good for you but loads isn't.

Ok one study in a sea of others that show being overweight to be unhealthy.

"There are no advantages being overweight."

Hmm. Current research seems to be showing that the healthiest BMI to have is around 26. Which is technically overweight.

So apart from the health advantages, then...

Snowshapes I don't agree with your comment re men and women with extra weight being viewed differently.

Men are generally a bigger build than women so can 'hide' weight better. My friend is a size 16 but she is almost 6ft and broad so she doesnt look particularly overweight whereas I as a size 16 would be very overweight.

A man who is 2-3 stone overweight looks it and to most people is unattractive.

I agree with everyone who criticises societies obession with unhealthy thinness as damaging to young women and I would try quite hard to ensure that my daughters dont view these celebrities or models bodies as 'normal' or desirable.
However I do not want them thinking that 2-3 stone overweight is normal either.

Simpkins You said you werent sure you wanted to lose weight as people might view you differently. I do think that statement is ridiculous in that weight is a health and wellbeing issue and what other people think of you is secondary. Sure you husband might find you more attractive, would that be a bad thing. Mine finds me more attractive when I have my hair/nails/makeup done and am dressed up for a night out. I prefer him when he is showered/shaved/in a good suit. The fact that we might not be equally as attractive to each other in jeans and a t-shirt doesnt bother us.

What is surprising to me is that men nowadays have been brought into the whole 'looks' and 'fatness' bleurgh that has so afflicted women I've known in my lifetime. A totally normal, healthy teenage boy I know is jovially teased and called 'fat' by his good friends because he hasn't got a washboard stomach and I'm told this is really commonplace . Men are dieting much more - it's no longer cute and endearing to have a wobbly midrift.

People are much more health conscious now I think - people are smoking less for instance. Fat, for all sexes, attracts more and more virulent distaste.

So I think this debate has two ends. At one end, is OP losing several stone a feminist issue? No, I think it's a health issue and one that affects both men and women. At the other end, does healthy women being pressured to conform to a particular body shape constitute a feminist issue? I think it probably does and should be lumped together with the eternal body issues like body hair and wearing makeup etc.

Women get judged more on their looks because they are the ornate sex whereas women get to do the picking and choosing once they've lured potential mates. I guess what I'm saying is we can only expect people/society to change through education to a certain degree. Women will always be judged to some extent on their looks because it's an innate, evolved reaction that is (unfortunately) difficult to override.

Simpkins I really identify with the 'why should I' aspect of losing weight. It really annoys me that my weight determines how I am perceived instead of my profession.

I definitely prefer the way DH looks when he's a bit porky but prefer myself slimmer. Because I look nicer that way and I can wear nice clothes, I don't think it goes any deeper than that.

Good points snowshapes. It seems that men and women both fill out in their mid to late 20's and they get a more muscular and adult shape. This is seen as desirable for men, but women still strive to be very slender like a teenager.

Re weight being a feminist issue ? I read somewhere that because our cultural ideal of thinness is more akin to the pre-pubescent female form, girls have higher self-esteem when they are younger and as they start to put weight on their breasts and hips (a natural part of growing up), their self-esteem falls. Whereas for men, cultural ideals of manliness fit more with adult male forms, so as boys grow up (becoming taller, heavier), their self-esteem goes up.

Into the realms of my own speculation: I suspect that a man could carry a couple of extra stone and it fall within the parameters of normal, we?d just call him well-built, whereas a women carrying a couple of extra stone would be called fat? The same standards of slenderness are not applied to men, heavens, slender even sounds a feminine adjective. I?m wondering about slim ? he?s slim, she?s slim ? do we even think/talk about men in those terms? And if we do, it?s probably more descriptive than judgemental.

Simpkins, I lost the weight because I knew I was having major surgery and I wanted to be a healthy bmi. It is disappointing, but more so when it comes to women changing their attitude towards you. I think this happens because weight and body image has become such a huge deal to women. In all honesty, I think it's more of an issue for women than it is for men. I don't doubt for a minute that DP finds me more attractive when I'm slimmer, but how much of that is to do with confidence? We still had a healthy sex life when I was bigger.

I am making a point of never commenting on other women's weight. Instead I will tell them that their complexion looks healthy and glowing or that they look fab in their new top but only if meant genuinely. Why bring size and weight into it?

In fact I don't think anyone on here has felt "the need to defend being overweight as some rightuous choice".

And maybe some women do prefer their husbands slimmer. But men don't get daily pressures of being told what they should look like, what they should eat, how they should look etc. They do not expect to be judged on their looks, but rather on what they do. You will find many many many more examples of fat men with slim women than the other way round. That is far more normal for society.

"Why feel the need to defend being overweight as some rightuous choice"
I haven't.

I am merely exasperated amused that someone comes on to the feminist section with such stereotypical remarks about women and then confidently declares that it therefore isn't a feminist issue. It is an attempt to shut down debate.

Feminism is a political movement. Pretty much any issue can be discussed from a feminist perspective. But one that adversely and disproportionally affects many women is most definitely as "feminist issue". A woman's weight, how women are viewed and objectified, villified for their appearance and their appearance being a constant source of focus ways that do not happen to men is what the issues are here.

sorry, x-post with OP

Without getting into a lengthy debate, mindosa, what is considered attractive and what is healthy are two separate things. There is a quite a wide range of healthy BMI; but what is culturally deemed as attractive is at the lower end of this and into the underweight category. Also, what Western societies deem as attractive is very recent historically (compare 19th century or non-industrialised societies with late 20th/early 21st century industrialised societies), I would have thought that was acknowledged fact, there is a mass of literature on it, feminist and otherwise.

I'm not defending being fat as a righteous choice; actually I think if people eat healthily and exercise they will be a reasonable weight, but the problem is that there is still a disparity between normal weight for many and cultural ideals of slenderness, hence weight/food etc being an outlet for any other issues of personal unhappiness.

I lost about 4 stone in my late teens and I suddenly because visble to men. I had some male friends already, but plenty of the lads just ignored me until I lost weight. The fact that some women I thought were friends started to get really bitchy with me upset me more though.

Last year I lost nearly 2 stone and my friends husband went from being quite rude and taking the piss, to being far too nice. It embarrasses me and makes me feel uncomfortable and it has harmed my relationship with my friend, who is visibly pissed off when this happens. Losing weight changes the dynamics of your relationship with other women too.

Sorry edit to most wives prefer their husbands slimmer although I am equally sure that in same sex partnerships husbands also prefer their husbands slimmer!

MMarmite and Snowshapes. Fat isnt considered attractive in many cultures though is it and it isnt healthly in any culture.

I dont agree with the whole idea of exercising or starving yourself into oblivion but most slim (not skinny) women stay that way through moderate exercise and controlled eating. Surely that is a better way to live than being overweight.

Abigail I would think that most men prefer their husbands slimmer than fatter.
Why feel the need to defend being overweight as some rightuous choice - its not, its unhealthy and unattractive.

I agree with MMMarmite, what is seen as desirable and beautiful is totally cultural. The very thin aesthetic is very recent historically.

To the OP, though, I think cultural issues aside, I would recommend concentrating on what is important to you. You seem to have recognised that you don't have a healthy relationship to food and diet, so I would try and work on that - I don't mean set yourself a target weight, but maybe look for support and resources to address the underlying issues around eating, and then, I think, though I am no expert, with a more healthy relationship to food, you may find your natural weight and more acceptance of yourself. You have valid reasons for wanting to do that which are nothing to do with either your DH or how society views women, they are to do with well, having a healthy relationship to food and addressing your underlying emotional issues.

Mindosa Of course weight is a feminist issue. What figures are considered beautiful varies from culture to culture, it's not all hard-wired in. The strict beauty standards that women (and to a lesser extent men) are held to, and the way women are treated when they don't conform to those standards, are an important problem for feminism to tackle.

People will think of you differently when you lose weight but you shouldn't care what they think as long as a healthier lifestyle makes you feel better about yourself.

"All men prefer their wives with better figures....Its not a feminist issue."

He he he. Best laugh I've had in ages.

All men prefer their wives with better figures. Of course your husband loves you larger but he will desire you more when you are slimmer, which will result in more physical attention.

There are no advantages being overweight. Its not a feminist issue.