akaemmafrosts's SAHM thread. AIBU?

Galaxy paid leave is between 12 and a total 14 months at 2/3 of last pay (capped at a certain level) if leave is shared between parents. 12 months if only the mother takes it, 14 if the father takes at least 2 months, too. - They can be taken consecutively or at the same time.

I quite like this model which encourages sharing of paternity/maternity leave however in reality it's still the single earner daddy model that is held in higher regard.

I think the long leave (3 years is when traditionally nursery education starts, and nursery hours are not designed to enable normal working hours) is counterproductive, and having this right to 3 years leave long increases the pressure to take it.

All in all I'm glad to be raising my children in the UK rather than over there.

Ewe - But that isn't quite the same. Catgirls was describing routine binning of the CVs of people returning to work. Isn't what you are describing more just a very competitive labour market - and of course a very youth orientated sector. I haven't done a lot with media companies, but I did now a lot of advertising ones and that was a similar set up.

I have heard bad things about the German maternity leave rules actually in terms of them discouraging female participation in the labour market. It means that employers are very loath to employ women of child bearing age. What business can easily cope with someone gone for five years? And they only get about three months of paid leave. Combined with the whole 'raven mother' thing, people I've known who worked in Germany found it very, very hard.

Is it Sweden which has very strong maternity and parental laws, but the vast majority of women work in the public sector? I think it is a difficult balancing act. Allowing very long periods out of the workplace can actually work against women. It can actually force them out of the private sector and mostly into the public, creating workplace segregation and further ingrained sexism. And, of course, in most of these jurisdictions, even if leave can be shared, it is mostly women who take it. Or at least who take the majority of it.

WidowWadman

So these great maternity rules in Germany are coincidental with even greater levels of resentment between WOHM and SAHM?

Widow, that sounds great.

I have been thinking this through, and I think that only a limited amount of progress can be made on securing the status of SAHP while such massive inequalities exist within society.

While there are haves and have nots, men and women will use the power of having over those who haven't. We can create a tax credit system which does allow low waged parents to maintain their financial independence. We can create a more generous package of maternity rights as in Germany, we can develop child care so that more parents have access to it, but there will still be families where the wage earner has power over the SAHP.

Galaxy it isnt just city firms. I find it hard to employ people returning to work just because there are so many young graduates desperate for jobs and completely overqualified. I work in the media.

The whole business has to be thought through. A woman has a husband who has a very good job. Or the other way round. Or they both have very good jobs. They decide that one person stays at home. Then one partner wishes to split up. Why should the working person support the other adult.

Leafmould "widowWadman if maternity leave is for 3 years in Germany, does that mean that your job is open for you to return up til then?"

Yep, that's the case. If it's twins, up to 5 years. Plus you can (with your employer's agreement) work up to 30 hours a week for your employer or anybody else without losing that right. I'm not sure though how long you're protected from being sacked after your return.

Sorry most rather than must re: garderie

In France school starts at 3 and must have garderies. Plus there are options for school holiday.

Maternity leave is fairly terrible though (4 months) Andretti is an expectation in many social circles that you will give up work. Some women in my circle of friends don't have their own money at all. That scares me shitless, even more do since DS arrived. I need to know that I can provide for him if (heaven forbid) anything happened to DH or we split.

Galaxy. . .it is a challenge. Many people round here choose schools on the basis of the after school clubs available, or which school a local child minder does pick ups from. I have found a child minder worked for me for school pickups and Wes relatively inexpensive.

Further up thread we noticed how the German school day is from 8-2. And in Italy they have a summer holiday of nearly 3 months.

I spent 10+ years working in employment law, but am currently (as of reasonably recently) a SAHM. My experience is that Catgirls description is very apt for her industry. City firms, particularly trading and banking, live in another century. It's not that representative of other employers though. They likely to be worried by long periods out of work, but more accepting of qualifications, temp jobs, volunteering as recent experience to get back into work.

I think one of the hardest things for women looking to get back into work is the lack of easily available wrap around care. I am thinking about returning to work after a couple of years at home and I just have no idea how you deal with getting back into a job with school age children. Babies were easy - I had a nanny. School covers such a small part of the day. And such a small part of the year.

Garlic bauble, I admire your intention. I will try. But I have more questions!

widowWadman if maternity leave is for 3 years in Germany, does that mean that your job is open for you to return up til then?

That sounds like it might support those who have struggled to find child care or leave our very young families. Does it work like that in practice?

It doesn't solve the problems of the sahm who have not got any significant work experience before starting their families though.

really interesting thread. I haven't read the original thread, bar the OP which I totally agreed with.

I got pregnant with DD1 unplanned when I was 24, I was starting a masters & DP was starting a graduate medicine course. I finished my MA & have stayed at home ever since... which has left me in the pretty position of being 29 & basically in the position of a recent graduate, except with a 4 year gap on my CV. DP is now a doctor. I really, really regret making the choices I made then, but at the same time it was/is important to me to have been at home in the early years.

Being 29, I am now the age where my friends are considering having children & I sound like a maniac anti-SAHM when I go on at them about not giving up work. But I think it is a massive mistake.

Srircha

No-one is saying staying at home isn't a great thing to do. Just that it can, often, leave women in a very vulnerable position and set them up for an extremely impoverished retirement if something happens - not just divorce but death, illness of the man etc. we need to sort these issues out do that women can stay at home of they wish, without taking on all the risks while the man takes none

I don't think it is possible for being a SAHM to not be a risky option. Why should people on minimum wage have to subsidise that lifestyle choice in the event of divorce, death, redundancy, ill health....? For divorce, one income can rarely support two households in the way they have been used to living. These risks should be discussed at pre-marriage courses and antenatal courses so families are aware, and do what they can to protect themselves.

I just cant see how being a sahm with no financial independence is that feminist an option. And thats not because i dont value it, of course it is valuable.

It's that kind of thing that makes me worried about moving jobs

It's anyone who has been out of work for a while

DH is SAHD and they would bin his CV idiots

But they are pretty sexist about who will need time off for dependents, even though they can see from me that it isn't always the woman

Catgirl, I think your employers are on much shakier ground binning CVs from women with children but not from men with children; DH and I split time off when the kids are sick and I know a number of other professional women in financial services who do the same. Surely women with kids in your line of work tend to be more likely to have this kind of set up, given the salary levels?

I don't want to get into the childcare v SAHParenting debate about what is best for children and I don't think either one of those choices is bad for children so if parents want to choose the SAHP method then they should be able to do so without fear of being thought of as "inferior," just as parents with small children who work should not be made to feel any particular way. I agree with the posters who say that partners should be chosen very carefully - oh to have had a Phd in Hindsight.

However, the arguments for parents choosing not to become SAHPs are centred around economics and, as sirrachgirl says, fear and mistrust. So we are allowing parents to lose a choice over how their children are cared for because SAHPs are not valued economically or not looked after economically. We are also advising people not to be SAHPs because the system is flawed and, if divorce occurs, you will be penalised, rather than saying, we need to change things so that SAHPs are not penalised on divorce. Since when did feminism fall into the trap of arguing against something because it doesn't fit into the mould created by the patriarchy? Particularly since, as many have sadly noted here, due to the economic set up of our patriarchal scoiety, the vast majority of families will find SAHPing inevitable.

Just to point out

We bin CVs from anyone who has been out of work for a while, not just SAHPs. Plus recent graduates (must have had 2+ years relevant experience post graduating)

It's still shitty though :(

I think "the team is as strong as it's weakest member" is the crux of it. If everyone does what they are supposed to be doing for the common good then WOHP/SAHP teams work. It's actually far more efficient for every team member to play to their strengths than for both team members to split every single task equally. Therefore if one person earns £100k and one person earns the minimum wage and wants to be a SAHP, it really doesn't make sense to send the SAHP to work and pay a nanny or for both parents to work part time.

However, as I said, it depends on the team achieving the following

1. Sticking together and not splitting when things get tough
2. Genuinely seeing it as a team effort- pooled finances, equal time off etc
3. Having attributes that complement one another

That's why marriage partners should be assessed on the same criteria as business partners, but sadly, very few are

Well, nothing is fundamentally right; beyond what is right for you as an individual and you as a family unit.

I think this is the perennial problem. You can't make a pronouncement and expect it to work for everyone. One size doesn't fit all and never, ever will. And nowhere is this more glaringly apparent than in a capitalist, patriarchal society when it comes to raising happy children.

Something needs to be done though, to provide safeguards for SAHPs, and to make the occupation more esteemable in the eyes of society.