Random men speaking to you

Some of the most lonely people are married actually. If women would marry men 10 years younger they would be less likely to die alone as men die younger than women. So if you want to ensure you aren't alone when you're older marry a younger man.

Some people also prefer their own company. Huge increase in single person households. I have never lived alone. I joke i will be 95 before I get the chance and even 12 hours alone in this house happens about once every year only.

I think we have to distinguish between persistent and aggressive conversation, where someone will not take no for an answer and conversational openers which are not rude and where someone desists once he realises his attention is not desired. The former is obviously a big no/no, the latter I would argue is a positive. Equally, saying anything to a woman on a deserted street at night is clearly scary, in fact it is decent to give any woman a wide berth at night on an empty street.

Chibi,

It does not work so directly. It won't necessarily be you who will become an "elderly isolate". If you create a culture of people living in a bubble, then those without close family local to them and those who drop out of society for one reason or another will have zero human interaction. You cannot refute the corellation merely because you are confident it won't be you personally who is a victim.

Most of the posters on here live in a much higher crime area than I do.
Do you carry around personal alarms?
And I think there is 1 sort of pepper spray that is legal in the UK?

the two most recent incidents for me were:

walking towards a man who waited till he was right in front of me to hiss niiiiiiiiiiice while making eye contact. we were both alone, so it could only have been at me

suddenly crossing paths with a man at night in a pretty quiet area that borders on an industrial estate. he apologised for startling me (fine) and then added how it was such a shame to startle such a pretty lady. (then i felt suddenly aware of how quiet it was and how alone we were. not fine)

neither of these represent genuine attempts to reach out to another person, or building a sense of community, and me not being impressed or thrilled about them does not mean i will be an elderly isolate who dies alone.

It was done in a male power over woman way though and he kept kneedling away to know. Instead of just stopping he persisted, go on tell me etc etc. He was also slightly unkempt but even if it werea really good looking single stranger I think it passes a line to ask what you're reading. It's like peering on to someone's blackberry to read their emails who is sitting next to you on a train.

Can any man match this one? I was in my 20s. on a train at 11.45pm two men get into the carriage, one of those trains with 6 person small compartments you used to get. The older one gets out his penis and a porn mag.... I am just a normal person and yet even just going through some of this stuff none of which has ever traumatised me illustrates how common this kind of thing is for women. It is not just the public masturbation but the kind of choice to exercise power. What I did was totally ignore it. I probably should have moved carriages but sometimes that makes the potentially violent person realise you have noticed them and so it's less safe. Or placed next to a known man with a "sex problem" at a work dinner, probably was set up by the seat planner. Man had reputation. All evening I could not quite work out if he were fiddlig with the table cloth or hovering his hand over my knee. He was so experienced at it he could do it in a way that you never quite felt he had touched you at all. I left before the pudding. Later i learned he'd retired and sought treatment for sex addiction.

Happily I can recount that I just went to the bank and i was not molested or approached once although it is mayhem out there given the Christmas period. So busy.

Xenia,

"Also someone wanted to see my book last year - what are you reading? Why shoudl I be obliged to show him?"

You are under no obligation to show him but humans are social beings as opposed to cats, for instance, who are quite happy to be solitary all the time. Of course, if you live a busy life, strangers talking to you can feel intrusive when you just want to be left alone. The corollary of this is the lonely old people, living alone and dying alone, with no neighbours or anyone in the community giving a damn until they smell something rather odd, which turns out to be some old person's body in advanced state of decay.

Everything has its pluses and minuses. Personally I feel that occasionally being intruded upon and annoyed is worth it to feel some sense of community and fellowship with others of my own species.

FamilyGuy22 post 12.02
re last paragraph.
I agree.
I realise, from what you have written, that I feel stonger than men.
Always have done I think.
I have always been around men who have protected me physically. And the trade off is I feel mentally very strong. And most times in life, a good mental state can overcome most dangers. And, I feel a womans good mental state is not a match for a mans normal mental state, iyswim. [that may be sexist in reverse!]
Plus, I am a Christian, so I know that God is looking after me.

Hah. Agreed, Xenia. I see a lot of value in "your answer" as it happens, but ...
... oops, derailed the thread

I don't want to derail the thread but we know my answer to the servant issue - make sure you are not muggins mum at home and go out there, have fun, out earn men and leave them to wash their own shirts and babies.

On male behaviour most men are pretty good and most women also don't tend to touch the bottom of junior male colleagues at work and the like. We are much better in the UK than we were 30 years ago.

I think it's good if women and men can talk about the issues and learn what makes each other uncomfortable. If women don't smile and are assertive over an issue at work I want them treated the same as men are in the same situation.

Also I am not suggesting charm has no place in men and women. We tend to keep customers if we're reasonably nice to them and that applies as much to men as women. Some men and women are no personal skills at all.

Another example man on train I wrote about a couple of weeks ago... said I like your boots.. I thought he'd said I like your boobs (laughing as i type this....) so was careful not at first to reply (you get a lot of nutters on the tube so it's best not to get talking), then realised he meant my boots. I don't think that's sexually neutral. If I had said to him - I like your boots it would have been weird. Mind you I said to a lady I liked her pink hair yesterday in a shop. I think it's usually pretty clear when men are pushing at what is acceptable. Also someone wanted to see my book last year - what are you reading? Why shoudl I be obliged to show him? It was nothing embarrassing but I didn't want to have to tell him. I kept the cover pushed right down and did not reply to him.

Garlic

LOL never mind about McIntosh and thanks for the response on your other thread.

No, I don?t make out it doesn?t exist but there?s only so much you can do to effect change in others. Thus, change starts with me and in many ways I think that?s a good start. I may only be a small entity but change will only happen if I treat others with equal respect and promote this behaviour in my children.

Anyway I'm off work now so may check back later. If not then best wishes to all and thanks for the debate. I think I've learnt more in the past week than I have all year

Good post, Xenia.

your other thread (about men shafting SAHM's) highlights the very need to ensure that women are adequately protected.

It highlights a lot more than that, actually. The problem applies to the primary carer, whether male or female. The fact that the problem exists is due to the relative value our societies place on 'home work' compared to 'business'. Capitalism assumes a serving class which, in the context of family life, would be the SAHP. Capitalism values the serving classes less than the 'business' classes; they are assumed to be more easily replaceable/disposable. (I should point out that I'm fundamentally a capitalist.) There've been several strong posts around this issue on t'other thread.

Another part of this problem is that the vast majority of SAHPs are women. Thus, this issue affects mostly women.

Taking a wider perspective on it, we note that societies tend to expect women to fill this role - automatically adopting a low-value, disposable role from the capitalist point of view. If we ask whether women are seen default members of the serving classes, we note that women's CVs are being binned as they attempt to return to the workforce, and other problems raised on the thread.

From there you get into very big questions about socio-economic systems, the material costs of prejudice and loads of other stuff! The matter of parenting is absolutely central to feminism. I certainly don't expect a resolution to it, but very much wanted to raise it in such a way that we could look both at how the problem might be diminished - for women and for all parents - and where feminism might look for future improvements, politically and economically.

I've had to write this quite quickly so it might come out garbled. Hope not.

OP - But was it funny when he slipped on the ice? And the 'hi love' maybe he thougt he knew you, but was mistaken.

I am very strong in all kinds of areas. The difficulty is in so many situations you just cannot easily object. I am not talking about violence but unwelcome attention on a low level constant basis (and yes I accept it is probably there against non whites too).

Say everytime you walk into your station the same two shop worker men who own the cafe look you and every other woman up and down from top to bottom day after day. Now looks don't kill and it doesn't really cause trauma in most people but how should one react? Should you get a group of women together to stand next to them and look them up and down? Should yo ugo up to them and -poke a finger in their face and say - oh mate, what you're looking at - how date you loojk at me like that? Should you give back as good as you get and look knowingly at his crotch and make lewd suggestions?

Or the men whistling at you as you cycle - you get off and photograph them and put the details on you tube or have the police track their number plate?
I am just looking at how men on the thread think is the best way for women to make it clear to men who over step the mark to stop those men and ensure those men don't think it's absolutely fine to behave like that. We are very lucky that it is casual sexism that is most common here. One of the leader items in today's Times is about all the trouble in India. Delhi has more rapes than any other city on the whole planet.

Have replied to your other post, after a fashion FG2. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about the McIntosh test, but never mind. I thought your post at 12:02 did demonstrate similarities between colour prejudice and sexism ... are you, instead, saying you prefer to act as though the prejudice doesn't exist? If so, you'd certainly have a lot in common with feminism-bashers

Garlic

I wonder if you've misinterpreted me slightly with the Peggy McIntosh thing. When I did the white male test I found that, in most cases, it did not exist strongly for me. To the point of me feeling like it did not apply. I accept it exists but I have had an extremely positive experience in this country. I consider myself to be very fortunate.

In general I dislike discussing race as I've been lucky enough to have never been abused in any significant way (yet!). It makes people twichy (just like feminism eh ). In fact I make a point of not using the race card and abhor it in others who do. I just wanted to highlight my perspective so you didn't think we (men) are incapable of empathising. Of course we will never know how it feels exactly (as we're not women) but don't believe equality is about us/them. It's a problem we all face but this will be the last time I mention my ethnicity as it's otherwise irrelevant.

I'm not sure if you read my post in your other thread but I am frustrated at women for not being stronger. I've often stuggled with the abuser/victim thing and who is at fault, the man for being a domineering/controlling/belittling bastard or the woman for allowing herself to be compromised. It's also difficult to draw the line regarding protection. In some ways I agree with Heroine that men should not view women as being in need of protection. However it's a balancing act when your other thread (about men shafting SAHM's) highlights the very need to ensure that women are adequately protected.

Previous what? Kim has a fairly unique perspective on this matter. I can't comment on your 'previous', as I don't know who you are.

Of course there are 'male' ways and 'female' ways to walk!

Many of the things feminists believe to disadvantage them can also be applied to ethnic minorities

YY, FG2, and worse for ethnic minorities in many ways. I did the Peggy McIntosh questionnaire after you mentioned it, and scored about half. I also kept in mind how I would answer if I weren't white and, as you said, scored close to none :(

I am in favour of more overt feminism and agree - to a limited extent - that women would serve themselves better by making more 'demands' and fewer 'requests'. My opinions on this have caused raging arguments here ... much as my generation of black people (and their parents) raged about Black Power. It's tricky, for an oppressed group, to negotiate the path between effective change and daily survival. Everybody compromises. The darker-skinned, the female, the elderly, the disabled and otherwise disadvantaged tend to compromise more than most.

In the light of your post there, I imagine you can see what I meant by 'white male privilege'. It's as though the default human is a healthy, white man in his prime. What suits him is what's "normal". Everything else is slightly unreasonable. This thread, imo, illustrates the theory.

Sorry namechangeguy but let's face it, you do have previous. it's an honest mistake.
And yes, your posts do make me chortle.

I may be a feminist but I was brought up in a patriarchy and I battle daily with feelings of inferiority. I'd snap out of it if I could but that's easier said than done.

As for the physical threat it's not just that most men could potentially overwhelm you if they wanted, it's that we live in a "can't blame a man for trying" type culture which fuels the problem.

I'm sorry for your experiences btw. I'm glad you've found a way to overcome it but no one is invincible when faced with blind prejudice and superior strength.

Lol at namechangeguy! How many different ways are there to walk down a street?!!

Walkingcups, thanks for the lol, but it wasn't a joke. Kim understood exactly what I was asking, so you keep chortling to yourself.

Garlic/SomersetONeil

With respect to intimidation etc. you are right that men don't often think about exchanges of this type (unless it is borderline harassment) but that is not to say we do not understand. As I mentioned previously I am an ethnic minority in a predominantly white country (apologies about slight change of username - IT boob). I am of average height (5'10") and built like David Beckham, except with more muscle (~70kg). My wife thinks I'm buff because I love to work out but in reality I'm smaller than most western men, who are roughly 10-30kgs heavier. Thus I'm akin to a lightweight in the company of mid-heavy weights. Many of the things feminists believe to disadvantage them can also be applied to ethnic minorities, such as jobs, promotions, pay, stereotypes etc. Granted I am still a male but if I'm waking past a group of heavy set, white skin heads at any time of day then I can well imagine what it is like for a woman to have their senses rising. I grew up in a white community and although fully integrated was looked at and still am. Children find me facinating on the playground and women look at me, sometimes sexually (they may fancy a bit of foreign blood!) but others may be thinking, "why don't you go the fcuk home where you belong". Like you I can easily feel disadvantaged and vulnerable and can only imagine this is why so many foreigners live in communities. Personally I don't like the idea of communities but not living in one brings about other issues.

But it doesn't end there for me.

The internet is a great place, full of information/education. However, it is also a place that can frighten ethnic minorities. The BBC published the recent census results on their website and I read the hundreds of comments left by members of the public. It's enough to make a grown man cry, reading page upon page of comments from adults saying that people like me should fcuk off so that white brits can have all their jobs back or feel like they're living in England again; instead of some foreign mutation of what this place 'should' be. These are people that are potentially on here, down the street, who I work with, male and female so I get it from both sides. I see images on the TV of pro-white Brit campaigners and BNP members who visit towns 'educating' the public. These are sometimes heavy set white skinheads that could flatten a guy like me.

You may feel 'vulnerable' but I'll see your 'vulnerable' and raise you 'unwelcome in your own home'.

The only difference is I have chosen not to let myself feel weaker, more vulnerable, less employable, or worry about my personal safety. I will not let myself feel disadvantaged as I don't feel any thing other than equal. Equality starts with me, how I treat my wife/kids/others and how I feel about myself.

I completely respect your views but as feminists you are letting yourself feel a lesser being and IMHO that's not right. How can you ever expect the feminist movement to achieve 'true' equality if you feel intimidated by men? Assuming we reached the ultimate feminist goal, would you still feel intimidated by groups of men, due to their physicality?

"I also think that if women start laying down rules as to how we want men to behave, we are possibly falling into the same trap of expecting men to adjust their behaviour."

That's just silly the two aren't the same. Women can't stop being women. Men can stop calling out though.