Random men speaking to you

FestiviaBlueberry

Although my post you quoted was quite long I suggest you re-read it and tell me why I should not be equally scared of people in this country. You cannot throw statistics at me I'm afraid as I have the potential to receive just as much, if not more. Yet I walk around and live my day to day life quite free from the angst you speak of. Why is this? (clue, the answer is in my earlier post).

Re: the abuser or the victim. Is the man wrong for not doing any washing up or the woman for doing it all in silent contempt? There are a lot of women that moan about lazy husbands but don't air their dissatisfaction. Who is really at fault? It's like work. Is my employer bad for not rectifying a situation if I've not made him/her aware of my issues?

I have a feeling you're thinking of rape and domestic violence, which is not what I was talking about. I was referring to the notion that women are often victims because of the chores that are expected of them.

Women aren't intimidated by men due to their physicality. It's due to their behaviour. Those of us who haven't experienced male violence, have usually experienced a threat of it, it's a rare woman who hasn't.

I'm sorry but if you read comments from SomersetONeil a few pages back you will see that she clearly feels intimidated by the presence of groups of men. This is what I was talking about.

And I'm sorry but you cannot post statistics of 1 in 4 for sexual violence and domestic violence respectively; state that there is some crossover and then close your post by saying that it's a rare woman that hasn't experienced male violence. By your own stats, over half of women do not experience sexual/domestic violence so which is it?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch

The many examples given thus far from many female posters has been of men dick waving and coming on in an overtly offensive manner. Therefore I was attempting to establish what type of offence was being caused i.e. sexual, power, etc. etc.

Yes, I provided the list in an attempt to work out what one can establish given the seeminly simple question:

'Alright love, did you see me slip?'

What you basically seem to be saying is that despite all the subsequent (and very extreme) examples given, this was nothing sexual at all. Fine, I get that now.

Therefore it boils down to him asking a basic, non-sexual question and whether the OP felt it was made because she is a woman and not a man.

If I am correct then the answer in 99.99% of cases is No. Men make random comments to other men all the time, exept they often say 'mate', 'geezer', 'man', 'bud', 'fella' etc. There's no 'if not' becase we most certainly do talk randomly. It has nothing to do with any sexist entitlement or any sense of women 'having' to listen to our spiel. If this is really all the OP's query is based on then she is reading far too much into it.

Don't forget that 20 something males generally talk a lot of s#it. I know because I was there once. We talk a lot of random s#it in fact and to anybody.

If it were me the outcome could have been like this.

Him: 'S#it man, did you just see me slip?'
Me: 'bloody hell mate, are you ok? you could have fallen flat on your backside, ha, ha. take it easy man'
Him: 'yeah will do'

End of story.

Inde, that's probably because women are unfortunately brought up to be more invested in their looks.

Giveme, who says I don't? But one can only change one's own behaviour, not someone else's or their misinterpretation of yours. In spite of all that I've always tried to be friendly to anyone I know. Usually it's fine but sometimes it leads to trouble.

I'm not sure all women share your enthusiasm for male banter walkingcups. fsmile]

I remember being at a social event where one man said to another who was on a lower level "I can see your bald spot from up here Dave". He got severely told off by some of his female colleagues but Dave was not bothered at all. Perhaps not the best of examples. The equivalent of saying it to a female might be drawing attention to grey hair. I just wouldn't do it.

Hi Kim I can't speak for your experiences. I can't answer why.

Looking back at my past, I can see that the more I became aware of the prejudices I faced through my life, the more I looked for it and the more I found.

When I started to become more comfortable in myself again, the less I looked for the prejudice and the less I found.

I still have my wobbles and am now very aware of how my own "chipiness" (for want of a better word) can increase the prejudices I face. I try my best not to look for want I don't want to see.

"I'm not sure if you read my post in your other thread but I am frustrated at women for not being stronger. I've often stuggled with the abuser/victim thing and who is at fault, the man for being a domineering/controlling/belittling bastard or the woman for allowing herself to be compromised."

Funny, I don't struggle with that at all. I've got no problem naming who is at fault, it's the abuser and anything else is just victim-blaming.

This stuff about women should just stop feeling intimidated by men and decide they're going to be confident and strong, is all very well, but unfortunately doesn't take into account the very real existence of male violence. Millions of women go out for the day deciding to be happy, confident, sassy and choosing to not feel weaker or like victims. Unfortunately, that doesn't stop men attacking them. No amount of confidence and chutzpah will prevent a man who is stronger than you, from inflicting violence on you if that is what he has decided to do. Telling women to stop feeling intimidated by men when 1 in 4 of them experience sexual violence from them and 1 in 4 experience domestic violence (there will be some cross-over there) is pointless - tell men to stop being violent.

"Assuming we reached the ultimate feminist goal, would you still feel intimidated by groups of men, due to their physicality?"

Women aren't intimidated by men due to their physicality. It's due to their behaviour. Those of us who haven't experienced male violence, have usually experienced a threat of it, it's a rare woman who hasn't.

Walking "be the change you want to see in the world" so said a fairly influential Indian chap about 65 years ago. Try it maybe.

Inde, I don't think anyone is complaining about you and I'm sure it is obvious to the women you do talk to that you are just being sociable.

WRT the banter though, I do think it is a shame that women miss out on the comradely banter. We're not precious princesses. I often think this faux protection of women excludes us from lots of stuff, although I'm sure you have the best of intentions.

Kim, I think we all know the answer to that one.

Women aren't as strong as men. Men have the privilege of knowing they can initiate conversation yet at the same time stop any unwanted advances. Women don't.

Also, society tells women that it is unladylike for them to be too forward, especially in public.

I'd chat to anyone on the street if I could. But I've been taught not to.

I don't usually make comments to passing women Kim. I do lack self confidence and I am also more sensitive than your average male. When I do interact with other people, it might sound corny, but my motivation would be to make them feel better ie to have a laugh together about something. I would be horrified if I thought I made anyone feel uncomfortable. I think I would be more horrified if that person where female TBH.
Why do other men do it? Well some are plonkers who have more confidence in themselves than they should. Some make comments that would be acceptable to some women but not others. Some couldn't care less if they annoy anybody or not.
I do think it is unreasonable though to think that men are going to communicate with women the same way they do with other men. I always treat women with more respect than men though. I say things to men I wouldn't say to women because we men engage in banter sometimes in a way that would be unacceptable when interacting with a woman.

but should be by

The requirement to double check what I have written, before hitting the "post message" button is directly proportional to the amount of wine consumed.

We are really going round in circles now. I think if it had been me getting out of the car instead of enimead the young lads may well have made a comment to me. Substituting love for mate. It sounds to me as if he made it out of embarrassment.

As for where conversation crosses a line, well what one person finds objectionable another wouldn't. Some thins probably wouldn't be considered objectionable but anyone but the most unsociable. some things would be found objectionable by any reasonable person. And in between, well.......

Yes. Blokes do this to other blokes. A lot of us, men and women, geniunely enjoy socialising with people. Even random people. Personally it makes my day brighter. It makes my wife's day brighter. It makes my daughters' day brighter.

Indeed you have, Kim!

GiveMe, what is the right that you want as a man that you feel OP is trying to take away from you? Bonus points for an answer that doesn't infringe any of her rights.

FG2, FFS.

Enim has never suggested that the man who said it was trying to fuck her, in fact she has made it clear that she was a fair bit older and so she did not see it as a sexual advance. Her contention is that the man in question felt it necessary to draw her attention to him in a way she believes he wouldn't have done had she been male.

In your list, though please note that wasn't hers, the closest would be (2), though it is entitlement not "over-entitlement" (I don't know what over-entitlement is). The man in question felt fairly sure that OP both would have been paying attention to what the active male had just done and that he was entitled to ask her opinion on it.

Her original question was "do blokes do this to other blokes?" if not, why not? Could it be because they don't assume another male (iie an equal) would be paying them the attention they expect from any female? Could it be because if they did, the bloke would give them a WTF? My time is valuable, why are you assuming I noticed you? response.

Best quote of this whole thread is from the OP:

But I just want to walk down the street without some bloke feeling they have the right to suddenly say something to me when they see me

Really demonstrates how warped this thread is. May God strike us down for thinking that we, as men, have rights.

The OP is above but to requote the OP explanation on p13

I see the ice thing is annoying some people so I'll explain. He was with 3 mates. He slipped over. I was in my car. He'd had a laugh with his mates about it. A few minutes later I got out.

"Alright love, did you see me slip?".

I just felt uncomfortable with 4 young blokes in front of me and suddenly being engaged in conversation. I don't need to justify it. I just did. So I smiled and said "Oh yes" and got on with my business.

But my point is - would he have said it to a bloke?

I don't think any man here is disputing that innapropriate sexist exchange is unacceptable. I am also happy to grant the OP that she is correct in her interpretation too.

However, I (as I'm sure every other man here) am finding it incredibly difficult to phrase the question, "Alright love, did you see me slip?" in a manner that suggests:

1. Power over a woman
2. Over entitlement over a woman
3. Sexism (other than the word 'love')
4. A request/demand for a sexual encounter
5. Getting off with a female stranger

The question has two parts, 'Alright love' and 'did you see me slip?'

The only part that is female oriented is 'Alright love' as I'm sure any person would agree that asking, 'did you see me slip?' could easily be posed to a human being of any shape, size, sex or sexual orientation.

What seems totally insane to me is that any man would say what he said in an attempt to exert his male privilege. It's possible but as a regular guy it seems totally implausible. Surely any woman can appreciate this.

It's possible he meant, 'yeah I'd really like to slip inside you too' or 'you saw me slip and embarrass myself bitch' or some other intonation that suggested some other emotional oppression.

It would be really useful if one of the ladies would suggest how the above question could have been phrased so as to show the clear excercising of this guys male privilege.

Is it possible that the guy's question was completely innocent but that the presence of 4 guys coupled with the question was intimidating?

I get that groups of males can be intimidating from the past few pages of discussion but am really trying to understand how his question was wrong in any way.

So really, what it boils down to after nearly 600 posts is that, unless the behaviour is clearly and easily identifiable (to men) as actual over-the-line harassment, we should just...

• smile / engage socially so as to foster community spirit / not die alone
• put up with it
• and above all - give the man the benefit of doubt that his intentions are honourable and decent.

When you're ready to clarify, Larry, I'm also very interested to know what the legitimate differences might be.
When the middle-aged lady said "I never know what coffee to buy", how did you reply?
How would you have replied if a middle-aged man said "I never know what coffee to buy"?

Could you please provide further examples of ordinary conversations that differ according the gender of the person you're speaking with?

Thank you.

trying to intimate that no conversation is appropriate

What does this mean?

Xenia,

This thread was decidedly not about either chatting up or harassment. Read the OP. It was about whether a man could open a random conversation with a woman.

Those using the 18 stone intimidating bloke as their benchmark firstly ignore the fact that there might be legitimate differences between same sex conversations and other sex conversations and are, secondly, trying to intimate that no conversation is appropriate, without openly stating it. If that is your belief, why not just say it?