Random men speaking to you

FG2, this is another interesting article which illustrates garlic's point:
www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2012/08/can-i-buy-you-a-coffee/

By the way, I don't think anyone on here has ever said a straightforward "Hello" and nothing else would be seen as intrusive.

FG2, you might be interested in this article about privilege:
whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Blimey, is this still rambling on?

Did anyone ever decide if I was exhibiting female privilege by calling out to the bloke on the other side of the road after my own slip on the ice? Poor innocent chap shovelling snow and me not letting him carry on with business and trying to draw attention to myself.

Garlic

Yes I would have to concede that it could be a form of harassment but that's a harsh term. The definition of harassment is 'aggressive pressure or intimidation' and I would argue that a brief transient 'love' or other phrase is neither described. It may be unwanted and you may not like it but for it to be harassment it would have to be from a single person persisting in giving you unwanted attention. You say incessant but this, presumably, would be from many different men, which I would not strictly say was harassment.

I'm not advocating such behaviour or denying that it may be a problem for many women but don't really know what you can do about it, especially in our lifetime. Attitudes change and I'm sure such imposition will eventually die out but let's not forget that some women actually like the attention so perpetuates the behaviour.

Going back to the op I honestly don't know if you can make the connection. It certainly wasn't as clear cut as a wolf whistle or the classic workman's outburst but a more subtle affair.

One thing I do know is that, whilst I do not harass women, I will continue to say hello to anyone male or female that I pass in the street, gym, supermarket etc. personally I think it'd be a sad day if we all said nothing at all for fear of causing offence. Do you not think so yourself, or would you prefer a London style silence and no eye contact?

FG2, do you understand that incessant, unasked-for attention is harassment? One of the joys of being middle-aged is that I don't have men constantly shouting stuff at me. Well, it happened in the summer (I must look all right from behind) so I amused myself by predicting the second response as they passed and saw the elderly truth

Now and again, a TV company or a magazine dresses a man up as a woman and lets him try it out for a couple of days. Without exception they are horrified by the endless calling. Yet it's there for everyone to see & hear, day in, day out.

I don't think you have much wrong with you. You clearly have a dislike for one liners which contain certain undesirable words/phrases. Human interaction is a tricky one IHMO and whilst some don't mind, others like yourself do.

I wouldn't say that this was all one sided though. I've had one liners thrown at me by women (not chat up lines) so don't believe there are any dubious undertones.

I'm surprised this has kicked off

There's no way on earth a young man would have called an older man "Love", is there? Right there, that's sexist and intrusive.

In the exact scenario OP described, he wouldn't have said "Mate", either. "Hey, mate, did you see my slide & recover?" Eh? Maybe if the guy was a nine-year-old kid but, even then, to a stranger? Nah.

When Ennimead told her story, my first thought was that the kid had labelled her a Mum-alike. It makes the most sense (to me) - he'd made a bit of a prat of himself and wanted to show off? Not an obvious display of sexual attraction, but a different kind of labelling.

The fact that the two men participating in this thread don't see OP's point about entitlement is, itself, a demonstration of privilege. The bloke called a woman's attention to himself, in clear expectation of a positive response. You don't find that odd.

It's not unusual, of course, but try a bit of walking in someone else's shoes. Let's say I - all 57 lardy years of me - slithered on ice beside your car. I'm OK, I'm back on my way by the time you get out. You check your wallet, hide the satnav, lock your door and I turn round to look at you, grinning. "Hey, handsome," I say, "Did you see my slip?!"
Does that seem perfectly normal to you?

I am not going to drag this out after this post, but I'd still like to know how you can be certain. You have said so several times. You don't have to answer if you don't want to though. It's just my curiosity.

Enimead, it seems obvious to me that you were annoyed because they were men. That is the one definite incidence of sexism I can see in the whole sorry tale. We can only guess at the motivation of the guy who had the temerity to chat to you - he may have been being an arse or he may have been simply attempting to be pleasant.

You don't want to give him the benefit of the doubt - fine, that is up to you. But to assume he must have been trying to demean you simply because he was a man - well, if that isn't a stereotype, I don't know what is. I mean, how can you be absolutely 'certain' he wouldn't have said it to me? And that was your word, not mine - 'certain'. You can't, it's just a prejudice on your part that a man has to act in this way.

Emin: What you have stated and what has been disputed are the same things. You say random comments in that situation were based on some kind of sexist behaviour. Others have disputed that it was both a random and sexist example. That is the issue and it matters not how often you repeat your view, it is clearly disputed and rejected by a number of your peers.

Enimmead

Please accept my apologies for the misinterpretation. As there were around 380 messages I just read the first and last 'x' number of pages and then posted my opinion. In fairness the first page definitely comes across as you not liking men talking to you. I'm not arguing the point but possibly trying to dig myself out of a hole ;-)

If it's any consolation I would never call a female stranger 'love' or 'darling' but am guilty of calling male strangers 'mate'. I guess I must be more sensitive to offending women than men!

namechangeguy

Many thanks for the clarification and no worries for butting in :-)

I may be very naieve but I've never heard of that before and am shocked that such a thing exists in this country. I'm not just saying that because I've edged my way into a feminism message board but am genuinely shocked that any man in the western world would presume to have rights of action due to their sex. I do have some very good 2nd generation asian male friends and it's clear that some residual male privilege exists. Whether this is part of their culture or the way they are I don't know but there's no way I'd treat my wife or any other woman like they do.

If I'm completely honest my only consideration when interacting with others is whether I think I'm imposing or may impose. Sex doesn't come into it and I certainly wouldn't engage a woman in conversation because of some innate male privilege.

Typo - for my last sentence, it should have ended '....he would not conduct himself in a similar manner if the OP had been a man.'

ps insert "it" in last sentence.

I am no longer a young woman, but I, with my innate caring nature, would automatically be concerned if a man or woman slipped, and act accordingly. I could not just ignore it no matter the age of the person.
Have noticed that when elderly women fall, it is the older woman who go to her aid and not men. When I was much younger I was shown plenty of attention, care and help from men when I was in distress. But I appreciated in those days.

FG2 - greetings. Sorry for butting in, but re your last question. Innate male privilege is the preposition that men assume that they have the right to do stuff based purely upon their male-ness. It assumes that we do stuff day-to-day simply because we are men, and that it's okay to do those things because we want to.

For example, in the OP, the bloke who slipped assumed that he was within his rights to chat to the OP because he is a man, she is a woman, and that women are there to listen to men's utterances, whether they wish to be engaged in conversation or not. He isn't doing it to be nice or socially interactive or to cover his embarrassment, and he would not conduct himself in a similar manner if the OP had been a woman.

LOL @ Latara - I didn't get the wrong impression so don't worry. But you have a point. I'm early 40's so am pretty chilled about stuff nowadays. However, if you are stunningly beautiful then I would probably not strike up a random conversation for fear of you thinking I was coming on to you. Perhaps that's your problem. Like the LMFAO song except you're sexy and you don't know it ;-)

Garlic

You may be right about blokes. In general I'd say we were pretty hopeless so I can totally understand how most women might not want to participate. I'm not sure I'd want to be a woman if I'm completely honest.

It's interesting you have had that experience with people. The last memorable experience I had was with a woman on a bus in Belfast. I made way for her so she could sit down and she kicked off the conversation so I obliged. We had a pleasant 5 min chat and went our separate ways. In fact thinking about it, I had a similar thing happen in a coffee queue that was taking slightly too long. I've recently started a new job and didn't know the woman but she was happy to have a natter. Since then I say hello when I pass her on site. I haven't a clue who she is or what she does but I think it's great.

I'm sorry for being thick but I'm not sure I understand what innate male privilege is. Doh.

FG2 I think if you are aware and picking up on signals then you are less likely to be making the encounter uncomfortable. Not everyone has that level of consideration, unfortunately.

garlic hehe, doubt it! It will make me feel better to think that though.

Either way, random men rarely speak to me here in Dorset.

Most workmen locally these days are banned from shouting at women which is actually a relief as some used to be very crude.

I dunno, Latara! Maybe you are so stunningly gorgeous that men in your age group are scared of you? (That would be a whole other discussion strand.)

I can often tell if someone isn't receptive and will usually drop it right there if I get the vibes but I have to say that most people are usually up for a bit of banter.

Interesting in two ways, FG2. The first is about commonplace social skills - I'd say I'll drop it 99% of the time (some folks are really bad at politely letting you know they don't want to know!) and I suspect a verbal approach becomes harassment when the initiator fails to pick up on "go away" clues.

While I've met many people, of both sexes, who are deaf & blind to social signals, it seems to be a predominantly male problem. Men frequently get away with being a bit clueless when it comes to emotional intelligence; I think this isn't any kind of male-pattern brain malfunction but a symptom of entitlement.

Interestingly, too, I don't find most people are up for a bit of a chat. I find just under half Brits are, depending on the environment. I also find men are more likely to misconstrue my friendliness as a come-on (not so much now I'm old, but it's still a notable phenomenon!)

My observations are all about innate male privilege. What do you think?

Eek, just re-read my post, i don't look that fugly or act off-putting honestly, but i think maybe that post gives that impression!

What i mean is that many Southern English men (I'm in Dorset) aged approx 25 - 45 are very shy / distant IME with anyone unless they have drunk some alcohol.

I find Northern men, Southern European / Arabic / African / Aussie men to be friendliest, also some London lads are friendly.

Southern English men who are very young (under 23) or much older than me (over 50) are easier to talk to than men in my agegroup, don't know why that is but they seem more confident.

Is it because younger lads have 'the overconfidence of youth' while middle aged-to-elderly men grow more confident with age?