Random men speaking to you

Interesting perspective you have re ethnicity, FG. I am white but my wife is black. We live in a predominantly white area. I often wonder whether she has suffered prejudice to any great extent. She always says no when I ask her. She gets on with her life, her job, and says she has never encountered anything beyond the odd name at primary school. I do think she has benefitted in many respects from being very pretty/attractive, but she has never lacked male attention - and never complained about it . Your outlook sounds very much like hers.

This whole privilege thing is a central tenet of feminism. In fact, many non-white feminists argue that much of the feminism you and I see as British males is defined largely by white, chattering class women who are rather absorbed in their own agendas, which leads to marginalization of issues that people who are women and not white are subjected to. Privilege is not just confined to us men.

I am thinking that what feels acceptable in a relatively safe area,crime wise, would not feel as safe in a far more crime ridden area.

Random women speaking to you as well. Men and women.

Annoying.

Thanks Garlic for not chewing me up and spitting me out

In my quest to understand I read P McIntosh's 'White Privilege' and obviously her checklist. It was all very interesting but I really don't know. I'm on the fence with it TBH.

I'm still of the opinion that it only works if you live a life where you are not particularly mindful of others. To me there are two parts to this. Those aspects that you can control and those you can't.

If you go about your business autonomously then I concede that this theory applies but I (as do many other people) constantly question the status quo and whether our actions are an imposition to others, or seek to demean/lessen their existence. If so then I don't do what I may have been planning to. Naturally I'm no saint so often impose on others but in the main I try not to.

The other part of it seems to be an intrinsic aspect of being white, which is out of my control. Whether this really exists I do not know as I am not white. What I can say however is that I read P McIntosh's article and in almost every case I could not agree with the statement given. Of course I'm an incredibly small sample but as an ethnic minority in a predominently white society I have never felt at a disadvantage. This is possibly why I love the UK so much and what it has given me as a non white Brit.

My parents were 1st generation immigrants back in the 60's and I grew up in a family earning in the bottom 5%. I'm now earning in the top 5% so cannot say that I have been disadvantaged in relation to my peers. I don't think I'm particularly driven or pushy but have suceeded as a non white Brit. Thus it's difficult to take all this on board but am trying to give it due respect.

In terms of the examples you give I will look out for these next time I'm out and about. I can't say I've ever noticed but in truth I've not looked either.

You're right though, from a social perspective it is very facinating

Therefore I googled the topic and found the statement, "I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege". I guess that puts me in my place lol.

Well, kudos for taking that on board :)
Deep breath, here goes ...

it only works if you conciously think you are entitled to certain actions/events due to your sex/colour.

The opposite, actually. The "innateness" of white, male privilege is that white men have been taught from birth that the world is their playground. The extent of this varies by such things as class, wealth and ability but, within any group of peers by those criteria, the white men will be the more 'entitled'.

It's easiest to see male privilege in action through minor giveaways - people sitting on the train, for example. How many men sit with their legs splayed and elbows out? How many women? See, the men get first dibs on seating space; women make themselves into tidy little space-savers. Coming in from the cold to a room with a real fire, who stands in front of the fireplace with legs akimbo? If you can be arsed, try counting the number of times men interrupt women, and vice versa, in a small social group or at a meeting. Loads of researchers have done this scientifically: it's easy to find their reports.

There's masses of little stuff like this. I find it fascinating ... not least because, as a negotiator, it served me well to consciously challenge the unspoken status quo at times.

Shoesme - Nothing to do with feminism, but you're probably maintaining too much eye contact. Give them a full blast just as you finish speaking, then turn your gaze away. If they're stepping in close to you, you're either on a train full of aggressive nutcases or have very relaxed, open body language. Try the arm across the chest and the traditional 'cold shoulder'. Are you British? I got into endless loops with Brazilians before I cottoned on that their eye-contact rules are practically the opposite of ours. Every trite conversation felt like an intense exchange of burning significance!

You can always just stop answering. Have a google of "social strokes" - more than three each is taking the piss in most situations.

What does annoy me though, is when it's early morning and i do not want to talk to anyone and there's one person who just wants to talk to everyone. It'll start with a comment on the weather, i'll reply to be polite, they'll take a step closer, they'll say something else, i'll reply to be polite, they'll take a step closer and this sequence repeats until they are standing next me and we're having a full blown conversation. Grrrr.

I?m male and I find more men will say hello, smile at me, strike up a conversation with me etc than women will. I hope that doesn?t say anything about me :/

I wouldn?t make a comment to a woman though or strike up a conversation at a bus stop just in case she did think I was trying it on, which is a shame.

not read whole thread just first few posts so may be completely off track now but maybe some men do still have that chat to anyone persona and its some women that have become so uppity its seen as odd to make a comment to a stranger, I feel that attitude has contributed to the stand-offish society we live in

LOL @ namechangeguy

I'm not trying to be confrontational in any way but am going to put on the flamesuit all the same!

Ironically I'm more of a feminist than my wife but that's another story

Random people talk to me all the time. On the bus, street, trains, in cafes, restaurants, hotels and shops. I have even had strangers come up and give me money "to buy some sweets for the wee lad".

I love it and wouldn't have it any other way. My old boss, horrified at my exposure to strangers' ramblings, would insist that I travelled 1st class. What happened was that rich strangers would talk to me.

I must have that kind of face.

Ah, FamilyGuy - you've done it now. This will be like Bastogne. Put your tin hat on...

TheDoctrineOfSnatch

Thanks for the link , it made for interesting reading and helped clear things up a little. I have to say that I'm well aware of equality but not of white male privilege.

Therefore I googled the topic and found the statement, "I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege". I guess that puts me in my place lol.

FWIW I accept that this exists but it's a non event for me AFAIC. My ignorance may make me privileged but it only works if you conciously think you are entitled to certain actions/events due to your sex/colour.

For sure there are other external privileges that are out of my control but this is largely dependent on general attitudes (which are changable and vary with cultures) so it is difficult to apply a single rule to fit all.

Thus statements like, "why do men think they can" and "men do stuff because they feel entitled" does not work for me at all because only some men operate that way. I don't (along with may others) so why do I fit under the same umbrella?

Have you asked OP what she found disturbing about this little incident? I'm assuming it's not that "a man called out" to her or she'd be in a state of apoplexy most of the time. Yet you have chosen to belittle her by trying to make her post seem ridiculous.

I sympathise with Enimead because when I'm out and about and I encounter youths or young men messing about I don't want to be drawn into their world. Unless I choose to of course.
Was their behaviour sexist though? In my opinion if enimead had been male they might well have made the same comment but saying mate instead of love. So not really sexist IMO unless we are discussing the difference between "mate" and "love".
OTOH would young females have acted the same way. I think it is highly unlikely so perhaps from that pov it is sexist behaviour. In the case earlier where I received uninvited attention from a female it was in a mixed group. I wonder if a group of just females would have acted the same way?

Garlic,

"Did you see that" and "nice legs" are two completely different statements. Not me doing the conflating here. As for "hi love", it is completely harmless. Annoying, maybe, but harmless.

I was addressed as "son" or "sonny" and also "love" by older women for many years. They are just meaningless words, products of people's upbringing. To assume that they denote privilege is oversensitivity to the max. Privilege is believing that someone speaking to you is trespassing on your ever-so-precious time and that you are far too haut to tolerate the conversation of someone en bas.

the idea that there is something sexist because a man calls out to a woman is wrong.

Have you asked OP what she found disturbing about this little incident? I'm assuming it's not that "a man called out" to her or she'd be in a state of apoplexy most of the time. Yet you have chosen to belittle her by trying to make her post seem ridiculous.

There's always somebody trying to conflate everyday sexism with courtship. What a pleasant surprise it's you this time, Larry

FG2, fancying someone isn't wrong. Like all grown-ups, you're expected to know whether acting on that feeling is appropriate, and what actions would be acceptable.

We have courtship rituals (as an anthropologist might say!) and we all know what they are. Invasive behaviours like grabbing at someone, humiliating them, calling attention to their physical characteristics, demanding their attention and so on are hardly likely to win you a new friend are they?

Men don't do that stuff because they want you to like them, they do it because they feel entitled ... to make you feel bad. OK, that's rarely the explicit intention but what is? If a guy in a van shouts "Nice legs!" at me, what does he hope to achieve? Nothing, he'd say, it's just a laugh, it's a compliment if anything. But he doesn't know who the fuck I am; no-one appointed him the Simon Cowell of random women's legs, and I certainly didn't run up to his van yelling "How do my legs look in this?"

It's very unlikely he set out to piss me off but, equally, he's not doing it as a favour. To him it's not very different from admiring the scenery. Which means I'm scenery to him - but scenery he can shout at, in the assumption it will hear him. He doesn't care how the scenery feels about being yelled at; he just feels like yelling, so that's okay. And if I told him, helpfully, that his behaviour's offensive he would get a bit annoyed. He'd probably say I didn't appreciate being appreciated, men can't help looking at nice legs, etc, etc. In short, he would respond as you might expect a shouter to respond if the scenery told him to keep his opinions to himself. The scenery's opinion doesn't matter, does it? Scenery doesn't have views, it is the view! It should expect to be looked at and pleased if you show your appreciation. It's not like it's a person, is it ...

Men are expected to make the first move to women. This may well change over time but, at the moment, the majority of women still expect men to speak to them first.

Now, of course, walking on the street is not the same as being in a bar. On the other hand, the idea that there is something sexist because a man calls out to a woman is wrong. It is no more "sexist" than a woman wanting to be chatted up by a man. Both sexes have different expectations (and there are also clearly exceptions, a lot of whom are on this board) but that does not make one set of expectations more "privileged" than the other. Inappropriate language or persisting after being ignored is, of course, rude and sexist.

I also think that those sensitive to the fact notice when men chat to them and probably forget when they have been chatted to by another woman or when they have seen a man chat to another man. It is confirmation bias in action.

It is funny that, since I have had children, lots of people chat to me in the street when I am with them, both women and men. It makes for a far nicer sense of community than walking in one's own little bubble. And as for the poster who claims that no one has a right to "her time", talk about a view of being "privileged"!

FG2 the other thing you can do is call other men on it. If one of your friends tells you about them wolf whistling a female cyclist, a comment like, "I wonder if that made her uncomfortable" would help.

Xenia you are right and I was not suggesting that it does not exist. Indeed it is sexist but as a newbie look at this from the outside, am finding it difficult to make the connection with the information given from the OP.

That's not denial or wanting to brush over it but just looking at the text analytically and as neutrally as I possibly can (for a man!).

From a male perspective all I can say (and I'm not trying to make myself out to be a saint) is that my not being that way is one step to improving the situation. I don't like it any more than you but sadly some men love that kind of stuff so I can only apologise for those of us that indulge and make you feel uncomfortable.

Unfortunately (most) men are hard wired to find women sexually attractive and whilst I don't wolf whistle am guilty of thinking 'phwoar' in my mind if I find a woman attractive. Is that still sexist? I guess it may be.

It's like a religious man having impure thoughts but not acting upon them. Is he any more/less evil just because his restraint is greater than the man who chooses to act? The thought/desire is still there.

I think I've just talked myself into believing that all men are evil. Doh.

FG, it is constant for many of us. To suggest it does not exist is very unfair. You might not chat women up but if women make even just one trip like say I or my daughters might make from home into a work meeting including some walking and a train t he chances are (more with my daughters than me now) that men will make comments. It doesn't particularly bother me but it's sexist. It's about male attraction to women. the UK is actually much better for it than say Italy and indeed some continental women miss it here in the UK as there is less of it but it certainly exists. I am not sure it will ever stop as long as men and women are still around but it is certainly worth pointing out to men in general (although not wise on the streets) that it is sexist.

Here is another example that surely even the men onthe thread cannot deny is sexist... Xenia, not exactly still in her 20s, cycling - last 3 times on two of those times construction workers in a van slow down open a window and shout out or woolf whistle. They were not warning me about a flat tyre... How many times has Belfast B or FamilyGuy been out cycling and women have slowed down a car and whistled at them?

BB and MW, I accept Enim's interpretation; you do not. Fine.

But the thread is about lots of other things as well as the specific OP, other people have shared their own experiences, including Juliex. Hardly rambling on.

Yeah, it's still rambling on.

Enimmead is still "absolutely certain he would not have said the same thing had I been a middle aged man in the car."

Despite many, many posters sharing their experiences of how we don't all read situations the same way.