Random men speaking to you

It all depends on how she said it - her tone of voice and facial expression. With concern or otherwise. I remember it as the man trying to cheer me up as I looked so miserable .

There is an obligation on women to smile which is rarely imposed on men and also general studies show that people of both genders tend to laugh at the jokes of those above him - if Prince Charles told a joke and no one about him laughed even though it weren't funny that would not be likely to happen.

The question for women in general is do you want to use that tool - charm , smiling, flirting, flattery or do you want to opt out of it. You can live a life including that or without it, both perfectly well.

I remember the first time I heard the phrase 'Cheer up, it might never happen.' A girl said it to me in 6th form at school. That was about 30 years ago, and I have never forgotten it, or the girl who said it. It seemed so odd then, and it still does.

Talking and putting women down - belittling them- is sexism - or to put it another way- asserting their male dominence. Applies to those who feel the need to!!

I remember that happening to me when I was shopping in a down pour when I was 17 and a man suddenly said " Cheer up love". I was upset because I didn't want to be looking miserable and didn't think I did. - all about my image in those days. Now I don't care < so much> as nobody looks at me anyway. Did get beeped by a van this morning in the rain, face hidden under my umbrella - still thought it strange?

I don't mind anything friendly or polite. However, I hate comments like "Give us a smile love" or "smile! It might never happen."

Obviously, I walk around looking thoroughly miserable :)

"The issue she raised, however, is the one we're discussing - whether people (men in particular) feel over-entitled to cross women's personal boundaries. I'm saying yes they do, in countless tiny ways as well as the bigger ways that are covered by law. I'm saying 'everyday sexism' belittles women, putting them at an almost perpetual disadvantage."

There is no discussion about crossing personal boundaries. If it causes offence to you then it is a clear imposition.

The difficulty IMHO is the statement that some men 'feel' over entitled about it. I would bet that if you asked 100 men I very much doubt most feel it is their entitlement to touch a woman in any form. Most 'decent' men would be mortified if they thought an innocent touch caused so much offence. I would say it most likely happens unconciously or due to their personality. Some people are very tactile (my wife is one such person) and some are not.

But where does one draw the line? You mention that you only touch on the arm but that's your personal limit. I might object to being touched full stop, in which case you would have crossed my personal boundary and offended me. What about the shoulder, back or hand? We all have varying boundaries, which makes it extremely difficult.

I appreciate your main point is sexually oriented contact and in this case I would say that most would find it unacceptable. No questions asked but like others here we are not debating innapropriate behaviour. It's the subtler stuff and in this respect I think it's slightly tenuous to connect over entitlement to sexism to perpetual disadvantage.

There are many parallels between racism and sexism, both being oppression of some kind. Thus these concepts, now I've read up a little, aren't too dissimilar. I fully respect your views and am not saying you're any way wrong but I am genuinely struggling with this.

That situation just repeated by Somerset - is it a function of the men's IQ, their upbringing, or something else? What makes it second nature to some men and not others? Class, upbringing, education?

A consistent theme seems to be builders, manual workers, van drivers etc. If we assume these chaps did less well at school, is it a sign of poor education/low intelligence? Would you have such trepidation if you saw three middle-aged men in suits outside a bank, for instance?

I was reminded of this thread yesterday.

I'm in my late 30s now and usually have a couple of small children in tow, so my degree of 'invisibility' to the pass-remarkable sorts of men who comment, leer, whistle, or worse has gone down considerably over the years.

Yesterday I biked into town, it was a beautiful day - very warm, even first thing in the morning. I was wearing bike shirts and a fitted t-shirt. I was unencumbered by children.

The contrast from the usual going about my day was unbelievably stark. At first I was cheered by the nice interactions that a beautiful summer's day brings out in people, feeling the bonhomie of the world and enjoying being out in it without kids.

But it wasn't long before I was suddenly having all sorts of old, familiar feelings of anxiety. The sorts of feelings I'd pretty much forgotten about, but as I recalled, used to make up a notable part of my life when I was younger, and out and about.

That feeling when you spot 3 or more men in, say, hi-vis jackets in the distance - in your path, that you know you have to walk past. They stop what they're doing, position themselves for a better view - and if you're !lucky' that's all they do - give you a group appreciative look as you walk past. If not so 'lucky' you'll get a few comments as well. You have to smile and acknowledge them and play along, because if you don't, as a lone women in ratio to multiple men, the potential situation is even more anxiety-causing than it already was.

Just for the record, I'm not an anxious type. at the thought. I'm confident, not shy in social situations, and at ease with my place in the world. But these interactions are - unpleasant, to say the least.

They cause me to feel uneasy and just-want-to-get-it-over-with - and I'm so glad that for the most part, they're over with in my life. Yet today was such an eye-opener to how much less frequently it happens to me now, and how much more I just used to have to put up with it when I was younger.

Each interaction on its own is utterly insignificant. Absolutely insignificant from the point of view of the individual men. But when combined with several other happenings, it combines to make an annoying, unpleasant, unwelcome overall picture. It's virtually impossible to explain this to people (most - there, I said 'most'! - men) who are not on the drip-drip-drip continual receiving end of it.

YY to your 17:33 post, garlic.

What I do hate from my male neighbour, my brother, and cowboy builders, is the putting you down as they know better than you. Any criticism/worry is all in a woman's mind/imagination, or we are moaning minnies. But we are 90% right or as another older woman said 99.9% right !! That phrase " Now you listen to me", or " Don't worry about it, I know what I am doing". And "Trust me". How I have had to learn, since I lost my gorgeous, kind and trustworthy DH 16 years ago. He was a real gentleman < sigh>

I'm showing my age by calling her a young girl. She was 17-19.

if I had done, what would your thoughts be?

I actually said up thread Garlic that I had a young girl not only make a comment to me when passing but she also gently pinched me. I don't want to give the full details because I told a few people about it at the time and don't want to be outed if they are a forum user.
In actual fact I was a lot less bothered by it than I would have expected. She didn't do it in a way that was threatening at all and wasn't trying to belittle me. Which is really what I meant in an earlier post about taking someone's intentions into account.

Garlic
Ditto with me on the Don't List. I have never been into social kissing - but like to kiss and cuddle my little dogs. Never called someone love, but like it when it's said to me.

Yeah, Digerd, I do everyday flirting. (I've toned it down due to my age, but fully intend to turn it back on full beam when I'm properly old!) I have no idea why posters are getting the impression I'm some sort of antisocial sourpuss.

I do cheery, everyday flirting.
I do not:
Touch people I don't know except on the arms (or for a practical reason, obv.)
Make personal remarks except to compliment a choice of accessory or something.
Allude to sex unless it's the topic of discussion.
Single people out for their physical characteristics.
Crowd people out, physically or verbally.

There are very many men who do all the above to women but not to other men.

I am guilty of over-using endearments. Most of my circle(s) do it but, since relocating, I've noticed it makes others edgy so I avoid it round here. Same with social kissing.

I think it's a distraction to get bogged down in whether Enimmead "should" have felt the kid's behaviour was intrusive. She said she does; that's the end of that.

The issue she raised, however, is the one we're discussing - whether people (men in particular) feel over-entitled to cross women's personal boundaries. I'm saying yes they do, in countless tiny ways as well as the bigger ways that are covered by law. I'm saying 'everyday sexism' belittles women, putting them at an almost perpetual disadvantage.

It strikes me as a reasonable test of sexism to consider whether the same thing happens habitually between heterosexual men.

I don't know whether OP's ice story would have happened if she were a man. She, though, is in the privileged position of knowing both sides and she says it would not. I do know I wouldn't turn round to some bloke and say "Hey, darling, did you see that?" Actually - if I had done, what would your thoughts be?

A few years ago, my neighbour who is 15 years older than me, said " You disappear when you turn sideways." Her tone of voice was was slightly sneering. I just happened to be very slim for my age and was wearing a very tight and young-looking pair of trousers. In fact I did look 20 years younger then. I just took it that she was a bit jealous. It was her tone of voice that had the intent.
Now the other day, I was crossing the road and thought I knew the old man opposite, who was shuffling along. I being middle-aged + and my eyes have a disease, I was staring at him trying to get him into focus. When I told him, he said " Oh, I thought I had struck it lucky" in a sweet way, and I laughed and it made my day.

Perhaps I am explaining myself badly. I meant that nobody would see those examples as anything other than insulting. What we are discussing in this thread ranges from minor things like smiling at a health professional to saying "hello love" or the op's example of youths saying "did you see that love".
Not quite in the same league as the examples you are giving which I would hope would get unanimous condemnation from forum users.

This is just mad. Which examples are not normal interactions, inde? The racist examples I gave were very normal indeed at the time. I didn't mention the racist assaults, graffiti and other crimes which were all to frequent, because I was trying to illustrate "benevolent" bigotry in a way you might comprehend. The assaults & graffiti would be equivalents of the assaults I (and most other regular woman commuters) suffered on the Tube and mentioned above.
Let's carry on with equivalents, shall we?

Shouting "Hey, Nigger!" - Shouting "Hey, Blondie!" or "Oi, Sexy!"
Before you pronounce that too trivial to mention, let me ask how often strangers call at you by some physical characteristic of yours. When did it last happen to you? What did they yell, and how did you respond?

Asking whether it was true that niggers were more 'well endowed - Making sexual remarks, sleazy hints, etc. Telling women they have amazing breasts or that skirt shows their arse off really well.
Do you know what it's like to be treated as if your main point of interest is whether you're fuckable? And for people to discuss this in front of you - or with you - as though they assume you accept this point of view?

prodding mixed-race children - Leaving aside the way people feel entitled to handle pregnant women or their children, criticise their parenting, etc ... Men prod women all the time. I doubt if a day went by when I wasn't handled by at least a few men I didn't know. I've gritted my teeth when they 'guided' me through a doorway by the small of my back or my waist; when they 'owned' me by putting an arm round my shoulders as someone else approached; when they patted my bum, hand or head.
Before you trivialise this - how many of the above did you do to another man this week, and how many were done to you by strangers of either sex?

Talking about coming from Africa, when they were born in the same street - Sociologists call this 'othering': making out the 'other' is more different from the speaker than they really are. It's a bit of a minefield in gender politics, as women clearly are different from men - but it happens when, for example, people assume women are better at cookery than men and worse at driving, or women talk a lot more.

Making jokes about their bums. - Don't need to equate that one!

The perpetrators of these small indignities; this 'othering'; mean no harm but they do it, all the same.

I was talking more about normal interactions between strangers garlicbaubles. The examples you give are not normal interactions and the person making them would have to be thick to think they were. I admit though I hadn't thought that post very well and there is more to it than intent. Although I would say a persons motivation for speaking to the other person should be taken into account. I would imagine for example that it is possible for a man to flirt with a woman purely to make her feel good about herself. When I interact with strangers I always hope that leave them feeling happier.

enimmead

On page 13:

^I see the ice thing is annoying some people so I'll explain. He was with 3 mates. He slipped over. I was in my car. He'd had a laugh with his mates about it. A few minutes later I got out.

"Alright love, did you see me slip?".

I just felt uncomfortable with 4 young blokes in front of me and suddenly being engaged in conversation. I don't need to justify it. I just did. So I smiled and said "Oh yes" and got on with my business.

But my point is - would he have said it to a bloke? ^

and above:

Because in my male days, I know no man would have spoken to me like that. And ignored me usually as I walked down the street.

[facepalm]
I'm at a loss for words
[/facepalm]

But ultimately, whilst valid I think your experience (like mine as an ethnic minority) is too small a sample size to draw any firm conclusions.

Presumably this is why you've had to ask the question on a public forum i.e. to confirm your beliefs.

However, it is clear to me after reading most of this thread now, that you are still unwilling to see any other side. Thus it would have been more appropriate to make a statement than pose a question.

IMHO the answer is simple. Yes and No.

It's not always about intent, inde. When I were a lass, people used to shout "Hey, Nigger!" at black men to get their attention. They used to ask black women if it was true that niggers were more 'well endowed' than white men. They'd go up to mixed-race children to pinch their skin, squash their noses and tease out their curls. When it was cold, they'd say to black people how it must be difficult for them, coming from Africa (even when they'd been born on the same Birmingham street.) They would say things like "You're well spoken for a black." They'd walk behind big mammas, making jokes about their bums. And more. Much, much more.

Do you feel okay about all that? It was done in good humour, really it was.

I am male garlicbaubles. I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clear. I usually do. I'm sorry about the swine who mistreat you on the tube etc. If this thread were about that though I would be just as disgusted as everyone else. I think there is a large difference between that and smiles and saying hello or even young males messing about who didn't seem to want to cause offence.

... I did mean to mention, in my last post, that it's so very commonplace it barely seems worth mentioning except when particularly bad. You wouldn't mention it like you wouldn't mention the three-year-old potholes in your road, the way the lift door sticks and has always stuck, the damp weather, etc.

Ah, you've never known one to mention it? Speaking from my own experience, only feminists mention it. And women of my age, who often remark on the reduction in daily harassment (some miss it, most welcome the freedom). And women talking amongst themselves, who tend only to mention it when some bloke's been a particular wazzock.

I have gone into work, more than once, after being molested or wanked over or attacked on the Tube, and not mentioned it. That's leaving out the fifty to a hundred minor infractions during a normal day in those years!

Would you go round advertising that you were vulnerable, scared, or "haven't got a sense of humour"? Well, maybe you would but I didn't and neither did my friends & colleagues.

I'm unclear about your gender, inde. If you're female, does this crap really never happen to you?