Raising Sons

"The males in my family have never been ' part of the patriarchy'. "

Really? They come from Gallifrey, do they? How exciting for you. I'm almost jealous. Almost everyone else on Earth is part of the patriarchy, whether they acknowledge it or not.

Once again Exoticfruits, you've used the words manipulate and preach with regards to bringing up boys in a patriarchy. That's you being supportive is it?

Thing is, you have every right to think it's all a load of nonsense. But when someone actually wants to discuss this seriously with other people and get ideas about how to bring up their children, what works, what doesn't, what people have found useful, what they haven't, it is deeply bizarre to feel the need to keep telling them that they shouldn't be seeking support and ideas about this. Do you do this on other sections of mumsnet, or just the feminism board?

"Fastidia you are deliciously obnoxious.really"

You cannot conceive of how satisfying it is to be called obnoxious by you of all people SM.

Thank you.

I am not being unsupportive - I am answering the question and that is that you live the life and set the example. I wish that everyone, in all walks of life and all subjects would do the same and it would be a far better world! An example is religion, if you want to convert someone it is far better to shut up, live the life and let people see what it means to you-you do not need to all evangelical and turn people off!
The males in my family have never been ' part of the patriarchy'. It it matters not two hoots- the only way that they could convince some people is by becoming female! They just live life in an equal way. I have 3 DSs- they have always been called 'kind and caring' they turn their hands to anything.DS is cooking the meal tonight- I have no idea what he is cooking- he has shopped for it and I don't need to get involved. Their friends are male and female and don't get all caught up on the gender thing- these days the girls seem to be doing much better in the employment stakes anyway.
I get totally fed up that on feminists threads you are allowed one view and one view only- you are told you are not wanted if you dare to voice anything different.
I am a role model, as is DH, grandparents, uncles, aunts etc. I do not see the need to have to preach and manipulate, if my mother had done that to me it would irritate me like hell! She didn't need to, she lived it everyday without having to mention it. My grandmother might have been born late 19th century but she was a strong women and was equal.
It is no wonder that people keep off feminist threads - if we don't just want to be 'yes' women.
Treat your DC as an individual, respond to the one you have and forget about the gender.

Fastidia you are deliciously obnoxious.really
the under thinkers lol, do you mean anyone who has temerity to disagree with you
lets be clear,discursive forum one needs to be able to tolerate opinion one no likey.

your inability to tolerate other pov well thats your foible.
lets recall the fem boards have had this before,the vociferous minority attempt to tell people what opinions were and were not appropriate. cue name calling.much hand-wringing about purpose of fem topics and some flouncing

mnhq clarified its a topic about feminism, all pov welcome

the fem section isnt some protected territory were one must adhere to prescribed pov
fem section like all sections of mn,will garner range of opinions. theres no house style or house pov
just because one disagrees with some posts isnt licence to whine about misogny and what about the menz

Oh wow this got ummm intetesting.

I was going to say that obviously we as parents are the best role models for our children. I am.teaching my children to treat all people as they would like to be treated themselves.

But as they get older there are othet influences and yes ad a mum of four boys i sm concerned about the impact of porn and othet influences on teen boys. We have controls on our pc etc and talk about these things as and when they come up.or the boys ask etc.

I am interestex in the link back a page? Re porn and boys, can someone make it clickable? I am on my phone so cant at the moment.

Shall look up that other book as well.

No-one is saying we want to pigeon hole our boys, yes we treat them as individuals like any orher child but i think.its foolish to not be aware of other social/media etc influences, particularly the internet and the impact they can have.

I suppose in some ways my job is easier because I am a lone parent and don't have to counter any gender-policing within the home, which lots of mothers do have to contend with (and indeed lots of them go in for gender-policing themselves). Also as far as role-modelling goes, DS has seen me do it all, as it were, so doesn't assume one thing is done by men and one by women, though the outside world is telling him this all the time. I've used a lot of humour, for example, in discussing dvertisements, TV programmes etc. and taking the piss out of the blatant sexism of them

I guess it's working to some extent because he seems very happy and confident. He's not particularly tall, not sporty, was quite timid and gentle when little and so did get bullied at junior school.

Here's another thing - school is really important, the ethos of it, the values of the school. His junior school was a bog standard school so he wasn't happy there and he was lonely and quite often excluded and ignored, but the school he goes to now has enabled him to flourish; he's happy, confident, good at arguing his case, popular and respected with his peers, unafraid to be the eccentric in the class. That's partly down to parenting I suppose, but it's also down to school - people should not under-estimate outside influences, schools, peergroups etc. - their values and ethos can crush a child regardless of how positive your parenting might be, I think it's really important to remember that.

The underthinking thing was me being pissed off that Bertie's started a thread in the feminist section to discuss the thorny, complicated, difficult, fascinating issue of raising sons in a patriarchal society and she gets slapped down as over-thinking it. It really pissed me off, it's incredibly unsupportive as well as stupid. I wasn't including you as an underthinker, btw, NB, you didn't tell Bertie she was over-thinking or was wanting to preach or manipulate, or was blaming her DS for being a patriarch the way some of these posters did.

It really fucks me off that in the feminist section now, someone can come on asking for support to think about how to approach life and parenting and the usual suspects pile in to imply that they've got no right to ask for that support, because we're all equal now. It strikes me that it's really not consistent with Mumsnet ethos of support. To start whining about how poor boys will get the blame for patriarchy because someone has asked for support in discussing how to approach parenting of sons when they are surrounded by misogyny, strikes me as a not very subtle silencing tactic and not at all supportive as the Mumsnet ethos requests.

I went on a lot of training courses as a Probationer in Brent in the early 1980s.
All their discrimination awareness was based on the premise that whites are inherently racist, that all males were inherently sexist and benefiting from male privilege and that recognising and accepting those facts were necessary first steps to awareness and working on the issues with clear sight of where you were coming from as an individual. Which I was startled by at the beginning, but became obviously true as I listened and learned.
It is an uncomfortable moment, but the key is how to translate the theory into appropriate learning experiences for children to effect change, and the best way of delivering those ideals and philosophies so that they become part of that child's understanding of the world and their place in it.

Fastidia, what is there in your second post for anyone to disagree with?
Refusing to accept the gender-defined roles that our society decrees appropriate is the only effective way to change them.
Enabling that to happen IRL, so that is the direct experience that children are getting on a moment by moment basis is how they learn.
How were the under-thinkers disappointing you ( I'm assuming you meant exotic and me) , and how is your attitude and beliefs affecting and enhancing the raising of your son or sons?
Are you finding that you have been able to raise the kind of young man we would all like to see? How have you helped him be strong enough to stand up and be different?
I'm quite pleased with mine, although there is always room for improvement, but in many ways his AS has made the job simpler because he is logically-driven and most sexism is illogical.

Marking place, interesting thread.

And Bertie, no you're not over-thinking this, there's no such thing as over-thinking, we're human beings and we're designed to fucking think.

I'm in the middle of reading something called "Protecting the emotional life of boys". It's not a feminist book, it's just a book which acknowledges that because of the gender-policing that goes on from birth in our society, boys are heavily pressurised into behaving in a certain way, denying their feelings, being brutalised from an early age to "toughen them up" by parents terrified that their sons will be bullied by the sons of other parents who are so terrified that their DS's will be bullied that they've toughened them up. It's an interesting read.

Role modelling, talking etc. all important. Reassuring them that they're allowed to express sadness, fear, loneliness, uncertainty, without being designated a cissy.

Ooh I've just remembered something else. Not pushing them into the man box

www.ted.com/talks/tony_porter_a_call_to_men.html

I see the under-thinkers are out in force.

Being privileged isn't a choice you make. You're born with it. I'm white and I was born in the western world at a time when working class people were given really good access to education (full grant, remember those days...) so I was lucky enough to gain educational privilege, unlike millions of women (and men) in the world who are denied access to education. I am able-bodied, which means if I want to go up to London today, I can just stroll down to the train station, get down the stairs to the platform and get on a train, unlike my fellow-travellers who have a disability and therefore need to book someone to help them get to the platform 3 weeks in advance, or in fact find it can't be done so if they want to travel, they need to do so by car. That's able-bodied privilege at work.

I have white privilege which means that when I go for a job interview, I am likely to be taken more seriously than a woman of colour with the same qualifications and presentation skills - not because I'm a horrible racist cow who is choosing to be privileged, but because racism is still absolutely embedded in our society, in people's deepest darkest psyches where they're not even conscious of their assumptions and beliefs. I am an anti-racist; I believe in equality and I find racism puzzling, stupid and disgusting. That doesn't mean I've lost my white privilege because of my views: being white gives me an unfair advantage, being male gives a man an unfair advantage. How we behave, what our views are, what our politics are, what our attitudes are, is absolutely irrelevant - our privilege exists, it's there, it's real. Statistics prove it, unless your explanation for the stats is that black people are inferior to white people and women are inferior to men. That's not my explanation, my explanation is the existence of unacknowledged, unrecognised privilege.

sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf

I wasn't using win in the way that you have taken it. I will just tie myself in knots if I try further.
I agree with Scottishmummy. I am not going to heap the whole sins of the patriarchy on my DSs, as they come into the world completely innocent and have imbibed the principles of equality, because they have had them as examples all their lives.
DCs do as you do and never as you say. They spot hypocrisy. It is like parents trying to keep their DCs on a diet. If you want your DCs to drink water you drink water yourself, you don't drink coke and give them water!
It is pointless telling boys that women are equal if they see their father doing nothing in the house. If the father is putting them to bed, cleaning the bathroom while mother has gone out with friends they take it as normal- you don't have to tell them that mothers can go out and fathers can do housework!
My brothers didn't have to have things explained to them- it would never have occurred to them that their education might be more important than mine because it wasn't! We did household tasks equally etc.
You do not need to do anything except bring up your DC with love, security, boundaries, sense of humour etc - and they will turn out fine. It has worked with mine and I haven't prosed on in a worthy way to get them to see women as equal- I set by example and still do. I am not going to label them from birth as the enemy who need 'educating'- they are individuals.

exotic - while I appreciate you replying to explain and I appreciate you saying you regret your terminology, I (literally!) do not understand this:

'I regret using the word 'winning' - I had no idea that people would take it literally. Why should anyone 'win'?'

WTF do you imagine that phrase means in any other sense than 'literally'?! It's 'metaphorically' or 'figuratively' fine for boys to 'win'? And you assume that no-one should assume, when you say that, you really mean it?

The fact you cannot find a way to think about boys without using terminology in which they 'win', even when you yourself are forced to admit you don't see why anyone should win ... that is just mind-blowingly ridiculous.

If you can't even find words for equality, why on earth you imagine it's daft for someone else to explain the concept verbally to their children, I can't follow.

no one needs book about how to raise boys or girls.what a con
raise your children with good values.love,praise and encourage them
our children observe us,live within our norms, are exposed to our values.

OP you mentioned you were worried about the effects of porn and the pressures sociiety brings for our children.

I liked this book www.amazon.co.uk/21st-Century-Boys-Modern-Drive/dp/1409103382/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1354376060&sr=8-10

Of course lotsof it does apply to girls too.

A very interesting thread and many posts have made me think.

I just think that 4 year old children learn best through first hand experience, and that you are the controller of his world at the moment, so his experiences and interactions are hugely under your influence.
So think about every word you say, everything he observes you and others around you doing, all the interactions and expectations and attitudes he is exposed to from relatives and people he actually interacts with rather than the second-hand media.
In the same way that you would for a girl.

I expected them to take an equal part at home with any household tasks, to talk to others with respect and to take responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions. To not use their gender as a reason or a justification for anything, from colour choices to career options to who should do a particular activity.
My OH and I have modelled that to them all their lives.
Good luck OP, love the child you have and deal with individual situations and attitudes as they arise, rather than attempting too much pre-programming.

An excellent post-in a nutshell what I am trying to say. My parents lived it-DH and I live it. I can get out a power drill and put up a shelf, DH can do the ironing. DCs take it in as naturally as breathing.
I don't do anything with the car engine because despite a course on looking after your car I hate it. It is all about choice as a couple. I couldn't stand being in a high powered job and missing my DCs first steps, something money can't buy, or saying 'I can't see your nativity play, I'm not in the country that week. It is all personal choice-if you want it then go for it!

For example:

" My DS says that xyz are for boys not girls, what a dreadfully sexist attitude, how can I change this?"

" Who deals with the car, who drives when you are both in the vehicle? Who deals with the garage, the power cuts,the bins, the xyz in your house? Who does the traditionally manly man things?
Do you do more of those and does your partner do more of the traditionally female jobs to counteract the messages society sends?"

" Squeak...DH does . Because he likes to do them and I ....um...."

Bertie - I have looked around at the men I know.

Many have attitudes which I care not for. Generally this comes from upbringing and/or ignorance.

Then I look at the men who are like your dp. My dh and my brothers for three. Brought up in very different family dynamics. Dh brought up an only child of a single mother, my brothers with sisters and parents who are still together.

Somebody else on the thread said it - you and your dp are a huge influence. Keep modelling the behaviour you want him to emulate.

One of the key groups that have been targeted over the years as underachieving in education throughout their schooling and failing to achieve results in examinations are white, working class males.
Teenage males are amongst the most demonised figures in our society, they often engender fear by merely existing after dark, especially if they are with friends.
I have a girl and a boy. I expected them to take an equal part at home with any household tasks, to talk to others with respect and to take responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions. To not use their gender as a reason or a justification for anything, from colour choices to career options to who should do a particular activity.
My OH and I have modelled that to them all their lives.
Good luck OP, love the child you have and deal with individual situations and attitudes as they arise, rather than attempting too much pre-programming.

I think that you are taking my 'win' the wrong way. It wasn't meant like that at all- it was just to show that even if they came out of the womb with ' I am not a member of the patriarchy' notice on them they are still perceived that way!
Lots of women stay at home with DCs, write books , do part time jobs, keep hens, have 20 years off as a Home Educator, paint pictures,work a few hours as dance teachers, start a business at home, do B&B etc etc- it is hardly unusual! Lots more of them than men. I'm sure that lots of men would like to and can't. A minority of men manage it if they have a DP who wants to be the main breadwinner. You sign up by becoming a unit where you are not in competition. If you both want to stay on a career ladder then you arrange it that way.
I have managed to do exactly what I want in life which is why I much prefer being a woman. I would hate to have left my DCs in childcare so that I could do paid employment- I have been able to work part time around them.

If you live your life as an equal you show by example - you don't need to hit it home with a sledge hammer. I regret using the word 'winning' - I had no idea that people would take it literally. Why should anyone 'win'?

I can't see why anyone thinks it odd for half of a partnership to exist without a day job (man or woman) there are lots and lots of examples all around the country- to be seen at any school gate!

Wow, I had no idea there were jobs where you could subsist for five years looking after your DC without an income, or being free to write without a day job. Where do I sign up?!

I don't understand why you think boys should 'win', exotic - I prefer the idea of neither gender 'winning' but see that some people are still outraged at the idea of boys not automatically winning everything. That is why boys still need some counteraction of that message from their mums, I assume.