Feminism for dummies

Tunip - 'I assume they would also have criticised the US Civil Rights movement for not being sufficiently concerned about discrimination against whites.' Exactly this

"For me feminism is about (to use an unfashionable expression) women's liberation."

For me feminism is about (to use an unfashionable expression) women's liberation.

I'm not really very interested in the blokes who go around moaning that we're not worried enough about discrimination against men. I assume they would also have criticised the US Civil Rights movement for not being sufficiently concerned about discrimination against whites. I choose where to focus my political energy and if men think they have a right to tell me where I should put it then that is, er, ironic....

Supermann, repeatedly referring to all feminists as aggressive: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Namechangeguy: "'...just that our culture accepts rape, and that surely serves men more than women.'

You see, I just cannot accept that."

The Guardian in 2009:

The government estimates that as many as 95% of rapes are never reported to the police at all. Of the rapes that were reported from 2007 to 2008, only 6.5% resulted in a conviction on the charge of rape.
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/13/rape-convictions-low

The Guardian in 2012:

The conviction rate for rape is 58%.
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates

I find it hard to accept, either. It doesn't even look like we're bothering to tell the truth anymore, we're just spitting out statistics in a lazy, haphazard manner because no one gives a shit about rape, or that rapists should be convicted.

It's only rape, innit?

Also re rape culture, I didn't read the original comment, but I'd say rape culture is certainly accepted, one example being The Daily Sport and their 'upskirt' non consensual shots.

Also, on a different note, but it relates, I discovered today that at my childs primary school, there's a corner it's hard for supervisors to see at playtime, the kids call it 'the rape corner', nice huh?

Right I wrote this earlier and it didn't post so I'm posting it now with apologies to all the people I missed out inbetween:

I knew I shouldn't have looked in here.

ncg I liked your post, although I'd disagree that women have a better
deal when it comes to education. Girls outperform boys in some areas, yes, and boys do need encouragement in some areas, in this country, but that's very different from suggesting that women have a better deal. What about getting girls into STEM subjects, for example my dd is brilliant at maths, now I worry that this will be eroded as she grows older and keeps hearing the idea that girls are no good at maths. On the other hand if I had a DS I may well have concerns about his reading and language skill. I think there are issues there for both genders.

Supermann, nice name, the only problem I have with men such as yourself is the incredible amount of time you waste attacking feminists. If you want to see issues for men tackled, start a group, go ahead, discuss the issues reasonably and people will listen. Feminists are certainly interested in the idea of sharing responsibility when it comes to children, you say men are unequal in child custody cases that is precisely because of the gender roles and expectations that feminist challenge. if you really want to see change in this area then attacking feminists isn't the way to go about it.

NiggleNaggle, there are different streams of thought within feminism, it crosses a broad political spectrum, but, the basis is equal opportunites for all. The reason a lot of the focus has been on women's rights is because women are discriminated against purely because of their gender.

OP, The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard is an excellent book if you're interested.

"acid -tongued"

hahahahahahahahahaha

So unfeminine

Well OP. There you go. Now you know what Feminism is all about. Out of the mouths of men too. Must be true.

Norty AF. You have upset Supermann with your opinions. How dare you have them. Remember you are a recalcitrant child that needs putting in their place.

It is like feminist bingo here.

The 2nd and third posts on this thread were very aggressive and goading.

HTH

Superman, I've never listened to Woman's Hour as it sounds to me like all of women's things squished into 60 minutes - presumably that's 48 minutes of knitting and 12 minutes of kittens, eh? But I digress - I believe that equality HAS to be a worldwide issue, and we have to be aware of what you call 'overseas stuff' (charmingly referred to as scraping the barrel). What's the point in making equality a local issue? It's not. We import and export vast amounts of goods. We have relationships with other countries.

Yes, we have to start in our own back yard first, but if we were truly going to do that then we would need to quit things like Children In Need and solve our own poverty and homeless issues here first. That's incredibly selfish.

I wasn't using those two primary examples of inequality to illustrate some sort of whimsical argument about women not having any rights, and that, innit. I was saying, here, look, here are just two examples where we're still getting things horribly wrong. The fact that they are not happening in the UK cannot be relevant. How can we possibly only care about the UK?

Have you been badly treated by a Lady, I wonder?

You sound so ruffled-up and defensive, I fear a Lady must have hurt you very greatly.

'...just that our culture accepts rape, and that surely serves men more than women.'

You see, I just cannot accept that. Firstly, how do we accept rape? In the same way we accept murder, violent assault, knife crime, racial abuse and the like? By accept, do you mean we tolerate it, encourage it, or merely that it exists? Secondly, rape serves rapists. To say that rape serves men is like saying that knife crime serves young black men. I need to understand what you mean.

You remind me of someone, Supermann.

supermann,

It is a great shame that your posts make you sound like a right wanker when I am sure you are a really lovely little bunny really.

have you noticed that it's only women in an argument that are automatically called aggressive? Men only get called aggressive when they punch someone. Fun fact of the day

I think the issue around equality is that it is possible to argue that women have different needs than men, thus for example, provision should be made for them which is not necessary for men - i.e. time off work for pregnancy-related ailments and breastfeeding/expressing - so equality does not address all the issues.

On the subject of all men are rapists, I wouldn't take it that literally, just that our culture accepts rape, and that surely serves men more than women.

That apart, I tend to think that the idea of feminists being man-hating, or seeking more rights than men, is a silencing technique.

AnyFuckingDude Tue 27-Nov-12 10:37:53
I wasn't referring to you, ncg

I was just musing on the new (or not so new) feminist-goading double tag team we seem to have picked up from somewhere

Superman - not that I'm trying to be a feminist or anything, but have you noticed that it's only women in an argument that are automatically called aggressive? Men only get called aggressive when they punch someone. Fun fact of the day.

I suppose the other problem we have whenever these debates are started is the all-talk, no-listen starting point. Anyone who knows their point of view before understanding all the issues cannot be engaged in reasonable debate.

supermann, I just told ncg I wasn't referring to him...did you miss that post, or are you too intent on goading and causing bunfights perchance ?

I think Caitlin Moran was right when she was able to identify what was equality by asking, "Are men having to do this?" Really to modernise that statement we should be looking at times when each of us feels discriminated against and we should feel confident in ensuring we're receiving the same treatment as others - whether we achieve that by talking about it to create enough noise to force change, or if we're in a more positive environment, by simply asking for it.

Feminism is about equality for all. Where feminism is successful is where problems are identified and resolved. The main issue however is that we are light years away from real equality - you could say real equality is visible through life's viewfinder if you squint and use your imagination. For some, this is enough. More and more men, in particular, are asking for the focus to be moved solely to men now, almost as if women have had enough effort and it's time for the focus to go back to where it belongs.

We still don't have equality for all. Two examples come immediately to mind:

1. Uganda will pass their anti-homosexuality bill this year, something which promotes violence towards gay men and lesbians. This is sickening. www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/26/uganda-anti-homosexuality-bill

2. An anti-rape female condom, Rape-aXe, which is a latex sheath embedded with shafts of sharp, inward-facing barbs that would be worn by a women in her vagina, was developed by a South African woman to assist women who are at high risk of rape - all women in the region.
   "If an attacker were to attempt vaginal rape, his penis would enter the latex sheath and be snagged by the barbs, causing the attacker excruciating pain during withdrawal and giving the victim time to escape. The condom would remain attached to the attacker's body when he withdrew and could only be removed surgically, which would alert hospital staff and police."

Whilst the development of this product is bad enough - that it was deemed necessary for the safety of women for this product to exist - the device has never been marketed to the public and it "remains unclear" as to whether the product will ever be available for purchase. The need for something to deter men from rape that would cause them physical harm and the need for surgery is bad enough. The fact that such a thing was created and then quietly shelved, leaving women still being raped in higher numbers than anywhere else in the world, is horrifying. This is not a scary story from 50 years ago. This is happening right now. This is the real important stuff here.

I'm afraid that, based on the above, I would find it extraordinarily difficult to muster up sympathy for a middle class first world man posting on Mumsnet about how men are often the group most neglected by feminists.

Supermann, yes - there are forces at work in the UK that want to equalise by reduction. For example, the erosion of pension rights for public sector workers is seen as equalising pension rights to the level of those in the private sector. This is completely the wrong way to go about things. And I did highlight where it works in reverse - education - and why this is wrong too. Do not work to lower girls' achievements in schools - bring boys up to the same level. It works both ways.