Feminism for dummies

In passing AbigailAdams
You enquired Where do you find women intimidating, bullying, frightening, beating up men? Where are the men whose partners force them to have unwanted sex? Where are the men fleeing to shelters in fear of their lives? Where do you find all these violent women? They are rare. Lets start by Naming the Problem for what it is. The problem is violent men. And DV has nothing to do with being weak. That is offensive and ignorant.

Of course, you're aware that the definition of DV has changed?

Some of your figures - and your rhetoric - are beginning to sound a tad dated...

25% of DV against men

150% rise in women convicted of DV over 5 years

40% of DV victims male

Shelter's advice for male DV victims

So, you know, your attitude that it's all one sided? And, you know, people being offensive and ignorant?

Have a wee think.

Nigglenaggle: you can't afford to be a sensitive flower on MN. I've been a feminist since I was a little girl (60+ years ago) and because I posted something that was deemed critical of women I was told by one of the self-describe radical feminists no longer posting here that I did not understand feminism. Considering I had lived it for my entire life I found that amusing (though it was indeed deeply offensive).

Who was talking about stereotyping anyone?

Did you post that on the wrong thread, OP? It doesn't seem to have any relationship to the posts I have read.

a good ideological argument is stimulating,if the name calling can be avoided
i expect to be disagreed with on points, dont need posters to concur with me
mn is robust, but thats what i like

Oh and saying we get upset at a hint of a debate is an attempt to silence and stifle debate. You don't know whether we are upset and so what if we are? Some of these issues matter and are worth getting upset over.

Where Niggle? Where has anyone tarred all men with the same brush?

is there men bashing on mn. yes but everyone,gets a mn bashing
theres also bashing of working mum,housewife,so frankly state your pov,pile in
its much better fem topics now,the histrionic shouters aren't here as much.they flounced

I work in an industry that has gender equality - means nothing until I stop hearing the guff that some men come out with and we stop seeing porn images of women on the front on papers.

xposts Abigail

BTW Nigglenaggle, I'd be grateful if you would read this.

FGM still happens to women who live in this country despite being illegal. It's another way in which the rosy picture of equality doesn't look quite so good once you scratch beneath the surface.

"FGM luckily not a big problem in the UK." Educate yourself. Here is a good place to start
And here
And here

"I don't see domestic violence as a problem of abuse by men against women, so much as a problem of wankers against the weak." Where to start! Where do you find women intimidating, bullying, frightening, beating up men? Where are the men whose partners force them to have unwanted sex? Where are the men fleeing to shelters in fear of their lives? Where do you find all these violent women? They are rare. Lets start by Naming the Problem for what it is. The problem is violent men. And DV has nothing to do with being weak. That is offensive and ignorant.

"the female only right to maternity leave has been a massive issue for us" Why? Because you actually have to face up to the fact that women give birth to children and to do that requires time and effort? That is only a problem if you think that women should be more like men and in fact women and children are an inconvenience. Women ignoring our biological functions or minimising the effects and what we do, is not equality. It is accepting that men are the default and women are, well, a bit wrong. that is not to say that I don't think men should ahve more and better paternity leave. They should. Anything to encourage men to take on the childcare responsibilities.

"That's worse than any inequality we still face as women (in the UK)." Oh yes. That man having to go through a formality (which btw wouldn't have been required if he was married to the poor woman who died) is definitely worse than:
2 women a week being murdered by their partners;
1 in 4 women suffering sexual assault;

6% of rape cases getting convictions;
the fact that women do not have bodily autonomy;
the gender pay gap;
the daily verbal abuse on the street;
the countless other minor sexisms women put up with every day.

In fact it is worse than the man's partner dying in childbirth. Talk about making it all about him.

"feminism is about equal rights for all". No it isn't. It is about equal rights for women. It is about women's liberation from the oppression of men. Feminism is not about campaigning for racial equality or gay and lesbian rights or disabled rights. There is overlap, but central to feminism is women.

Nigglenaggle, you've said you believe gender equality has been sorted, based on your own workplace experience (but cite the need for "further tweaks" even there,) and what appear to be erroneous assumptions about links between gender and discrimination, oppression and violence.

Okay, if you are in a workplace where you say you feel gender equality has been achieved, congratulations! You are in a very privileged position if that is the case. However, with privilege comes responsibility - responsibility to accept that not everyone is in your shoes, not everyone's experience conforms to your experience, and just because you are privileged does not entitle you to make pronouncements about the lives and experiences of others - lives and experiences you know very little about.

Having a pop at Any for calling you up on your lack of knowledge and experience of gender-based violence and your choice of words (sorry, saying you "aren't good with words" or "aren't good at tact," too often is used as an escape clause for someone who doesn't care if their language is hurtful to others or worse, knows it is but doesn't want to take any responsibility for hurting others,) suggests that you DO feel entitled to make pronouncements about things you know little about. Patronising is another term that springs to mind. So, don't expect to be greeted with a mug of cocoa and biscuits in a forum that discusses Feminism.

I guess also I have been thinking that equality is sort of redundant because we have it

What ?! When did that happen! haven't read my feminist round up newsletter this week yet...

YY trills.

Make that especially in scenarios where you thought everything was fine. It is not as fine as you think. Being a feminist tends to require that you face up to things that you'd rather not have to think about, just because you've never experienced them (or you'v not been paying attention when you did experience them).

Lots of things in our culture could encourage it.

Have you seen some forms of pornography? Hugely abusive and demeaning to women. I'm actually not against porn full-stop but I am against the types which say 'Find a slut in your area' or 'Barely legal and abused'

Some men (not all) are brought up to believe that women should be in a secondary supporting role. Have you seen the relationships board here? It's quite worrying how some women don't have proper access to an income, are expected to do all the domestic stuff. If women don't conform or start to challenge, it can sometimes end up in abuse.

Music can be another area of misogyny. I can try and dig out some examples.

What I'm saying is that misogyny is largely culturally-based.

No, I am not touchy. You are making offensive statements and then telling me to chill out about it with a whisky. It's just as well there are lots of people who refuse to chill out about gendered violence against women, or certainly a lot of women's lives would be a lot less comfortable right now. Although there is still a huge amount of work to be done...your pronouncements being case in point.

Feminism for dummies (IMO)

Do you think that people should be equally valued and respected and given equal opportunities, regardless of their sex/gender?

Do you think that this is not currently the case?

Would you like it to be the case?

Congratulations, you are a feminist. Now go find out more about how and why this is not the case (even in places where you thought everything was fine), and how you can encourage it to become the case.

One thing that encourages DV in our society is when people who haven't experienced it make sweeping statements that are ill-informed.

I think what you're trying to say, Niggle, is that it's bullies acting out.

(But I do reckon a lot of people believe subconsciously that victims of DV are weak and that's why they are abused. It's a pretty common belief.)

I would have you educate yourself. If you think it's ok to come on a Feminism topic and make pronouncements like the victims of DV are "weak" I suggest you do some reading, or at the very least don't act surprised when people rightly pull you up on it.