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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I think I am actually speechless. Apparently the reason why men bolt is because

93 replies

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 24/11/2012 22:02

... They are not respected enough by their wives.

Tim Lott's column from the Guardian today:

"I'm going to stick my trembling head above the parapet this week and reveal what men secretly talk about when the women aren't around ? at least the men I've known over the past 20 or so years. Contrary to myth, they hardly ever talk about sex. They almost never bitch about other men. They do talk about football, music, films, television and politics. They do value humour highly. They banter, josh and wind up. And sometimes they talk about their marriages.

Some men are happy in their marriages and don't have much to say. Others are reluctant to speak out. But many are frustrated. None of these men are cavemen. Most are fully signed up to feminism in one form or another. Yet the same issues crop up time and again.

Those dissatisfactions in full:

  1. Credit. Husbands with children feel they don't get enough credit from their wives. This is especially true when the man is the main wage earner. Going to work every day and taking financial responsibility tends to be seen as a privilege, an "escape" from childcare. But like childcare itself, a nine-to-five job can be a privilege and a burden.

  2. Respect. Husbands sometimes feel they don't get enough respect from their wives, who stereotype them as childish and failing to address their responsibilities properly. Men are infantilised. But perhaps men are just living up to expectations.

  3. Priorities. Men are a low priority for their wives compared with work, children, friends etc. I once asked my wife to draw up a list of her life priorities. I think I scraped in at about fourth.

Please, sceptical women readers, whose lips I sense curling collectively, don't write in with comments such as "diddums" and "It's your turn to feel like that after six centuries". It's crass and dull. Children need fathers, as well as mothers, whom they can look up to.

Perhaps wives would also feel better if they respected their husbands more. I have mentioned before that I attended a marriage course last year. It taught a very shocking thing ? that you should put your partner first. Not your children, or your work, or your friends. To a lot of women that is a cop-out, a throwback to the 1950s. But wouldn't they expect to be put first? Yet this expectation can be a one-way street. To many modern women, a man is seen as ultimately dispensable. Perhaps he is. But you can't expect any man to welcome the news.

It is easy to sideline these observations as whining. But perhaps that's just a way of not facing reality. Fifty years of feminism has meant that the grievances of the wife are sanctified in a way that the grievances of a husband are not. If a woman has a problem, it tends to be taken seriously. If a man has a problem, it tends to be waved away or patronised out of existence.

(Or so men tell me. So don't shoot the messenger. Anyway, this isn't a story about "women", but people in long-term relationships.)

To make sure that no one felt I was speaking out of turn, I emailed this article to half a dozen mates. No one did. The replies were not angry. They were moving and rather sad. Many men nowadays don't, on the whole, feel great about themselves. Men suffer from low self-esteem just as much as women do.

Wives can choose to listen or not. All I can note is that in all the relationships I've seen die over the past 10 years, it's always been the man who bolts. Perhaps it is that allegedly intractable male vice of irresponsibility.

Or perhaps there are valid reasons that the refractions of gender politics renders invisible ? and the wilful blindness only becomes apparent when it's too late."

OP posts:
ProphetOfDoom · 24/11/2012 22:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 24/11/2012 22:32

I think I could stomach this argument if he said - people who don't treat their partners with respect will have bad relationships. What is all this man /woman stuff?

OP posts:
EdgarAllanPond · 24/11/2012 22:30

he's just trolling, really.

EdgarAllanPond · 24/11/2012 22:29

"If a woman has a problem, it tends to be taken seriously."

really?

so they never get told they are 'humourless'? 'over-sensitive' ? 'lacking perspective'?

BOFingSanta · 24/11/2012 22:25

Even if you agreed with the thrust of what he was saying (and there are some reasonable points in there), I don't understand why any of it is a justification for men "bolting". From what I've seen on here, men who leave almost always leave for somebody else. And that makes all of it sound like a bit of a pathetic excuse to shag around. It's easy to do something shitty if you can blame the person you are betraying.

waltermittymistletoe · 24/11/2012 22:22

Wives can choose to listen or not

Phew. Thank god he gave us little wifeys permission huh?

Wanker.

EdithWeston · 24/11/2012 22:21

Because you will have been a success at raising your children when they leave you as fully functioning adults themselves. The whole process is about letting go.

Your spouse/partner is (perhaps) someone you want to stick at your side, after the DCs are gone, so it's worth the investment. By both.

Mollydoggerson · 24/11/2012 22:21

Why can't men voice these concerns to their wives if needs be?

ATailOfTwoKitties · 24/11/2012 22:19

and no, I wouldn't expect him to put me first in a crisis either, not above the offspring. Is this odd? I wouldn't have thought so.

ATailOfTwoKitties · 24/11/2012 22:16

I attended a marriage course last year. It taught a very shocking thing ? that you should put your partner first. Not your children

Errm, why?

Seriously, do they teach this? That you should put the 'needs' of another fully functioning adult above those of children?

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 24/11/2012 22:14

I've never really liked his column, but this one was just bizarre.

Of course, his reasoning must be spot on because six of his friends didn't disagree with him. Hmm

OP posts:
EdithWeston · 24/11/2012 22:13

Yeah, I can agree that both sexes face problems in long term relationships.

But the choice whether to examine that, take responsibility for working to improve the relationship and all that goes with it, is up to the individual man or woman. So he appears to be saying that relationship maintenance is up to the female partner only, and men are helpless creatures who need to have it all done for them, else they just leave?

Wouldn't it be so much better if they actually looked hard at what was happening, and committed as an equal partner with equal responsibility?

LookBehindYou · 24/11/2012 22:13

Fermez thanks for pointing that out and sorry op. Have just had a small row with a friend about the 'credit' thing so bit too soon.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 24/11/2012 22:12

Just to be clear - it's not my "diddums" comment, I've just copied and pasted the article...

OP posts:
LynetteScavo · 24/11/2012 22:10

This is so fucking complex, I don't know where to start.

2Men who bolt", and" it's always been the man who bolts".....because they are not respected by their wives, or because they are more willing to leave their DC than their wife.

Nothing is this black and white.

FermezLaBouche · 24/11/2012 22:09

I don't think the "diddums" came from the OP, LBY. Hmm

BeerTricksPott3r · 24/11/2012 22:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LookBehindYou · 24/11/2012 22:06

I do think men are often infantilised and your 'diddums' pretty much backs that up.