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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I think I am actually speechless. Apparently the reason why men bolt is because

93 replies

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 24/11/2012 22:02

... They are not respected enough by their wives.

Tim Lott's column from the Guardian today:

"I'm going to stick my trembling head above the parapet this week and reveal what men secretly talk about when the women aren't around ? at least the men I've known over the past 20 or so years. Contrary to myth, they hardly ever talk about sex. They almost never bitch about other men. They do talk about football, music, films, television and politics. They do value humour highly. They banter, josh and wind up. And sometimes they talk about their marriages.

Some men are happy in their marriages and don't have much to say. Others are reluctant to speak out. But many are frustrated. None of these men are cavemen. Most are fully signed up to feminism in one form or another. Yet the same issues crop up time and again.

Those dissatisfactions in full:

  1. Credit. Husbands with children feel they don't get enough credit from their wives. This is especially true when the man is the main wage earner. Going to work every day and taking financial responsibility tends to be seen as a privilege, an "escape" from childcare. But like childcare itself, a nine-to-five job can be a privilege and a burden.

  2. Respect. Husbands sometimes feel they don't get enough respect from their wives, who stereotype them as childish and failing to address their responsibilities properly. Men are infantilised. But perhaps men are just living up to expectations.

  3. Priorities. Men are a low priority for their wives compared with work, children, friends etc. I once asked my wife to draw up a list of her life priorities. I think I scraped in at about fourth.

Please, sceptical women readers, whose lips I sense curling collectively, don't write in with comments such as "diddums" and "It's your turn to feel like that after six centuries". It's crass and dull. Children need fathers, as well as mothers, whom they can look up to.

Perhaps wives would also feel better if they respected their husbands more. I have mentioned before that I attended a marriage course last year. It taught a very shocking thing ? that you should put your partner first. Not your children, or your work, or your friends. To a lot of women that is a cop-out, a throwback to the 1950s. But wouldn't they expect to be put first? Yet this expectation can be a one-way street. To many modern women, a man is seen as ultimately dispensable. Perhaps he is. But you can't expect any man to welcome the news.

It is easy to sideline these observations as whining. But perhaps that's just a way of not facing reality. Fifty years of feminism has meant that the grievances of the wife are sanctified in a way that the grievances of a husband are not. If a woman has a problem, it tends to be taken seriously. If a man has a problem, it tends to be waved away or patronised out of existence.

(Or so men tell me. So don't shoot the messenger. Anyway, this isn't a story about "women", but people in long-term relationships.)

To make sure that no one felt I was speaking out of turn, I emailed this article to half a dozen mates. No one did. The replies were not angry. They were moving and rather sad. Many men nowadays don't, on the whole, feel great about themselves. Men suffer from low self-esteem just as much as women do.

Wives can choose to listen or not. All I can note is that in all the relationships I've seen die over the past 10 years, it's always been the man who bolts. Perhaps it is that allegedly intractable male vice of irresponsibility.

Or perhaps there are valid reasons that the refractions of gender politics renders invisible ? and the wilful blindness only becomes apparent when it's too late."

OP posts:
SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR · 04/12/2012 23:25

What he's whining about is happening, but it's not what he says it is. Women are now more able to treat men as equals rather than being obliged to consider them as superior and some men hate this and whine and complain. Or, of course, start abusing their wives in order to regain their King Cock status.

As soon as women became able to dump unsatisfactory men they started doing so, but rather than men (collectively) realising that the party was over and it was time to start doing their share of the work, a lot of them retreated into misogyny and abuse. But that's sort-of Ok in that the more they do it, the more women will leave their sorry arses and they will woman-hate their way out of existence.

RiaUnderTheMistletoe · 04/12/2012 14:37

Whose whining does he mean, husbands whining to get sex or wives whining they don't want to? Horrendous either way.

EldritchCleavage · 04/12/2012 12:44

Altocumulus, I've heard that kind of talk too, though I really don't experience it as being widespread. It is a strand of modern culture that is reflected in all those 'jokey' ads where the woman is really capable and the man is a dope.

However, it would be wrong to suggest it is even a dominant strand in our culture, which is still patriarchal and misogynistic. In fact, I think the dismissiveness is usually a reaction to misogyny and male entitlement. The couples I've met where the woman talks like this have been ones in which there have been huge problems, and problems arising from pretty awful behaviour by the man (though you may think well I would say that).

We're both generalising of course, and my generalisations are no more valid than yours. I just don't like it when people come out with the sort of stuff in the Tim Lott article as though this is the real reason modern relationships founder. This is a man's world, feminism is in retreat and women get the thin end of the wedge. To say otherwise is unreal.

summerflower · 04/12/2012 11:21

This week he praised married sex as it was more regularly available, albeit "with a bit of whining".

AbigailAdams · 04/12/2012 11:12

Of course he is a misogynist. His lack of respect for women shines out in the article. Women generally don't disrespect men. We are taught from an early age not to. Men on the other hand are taught from an early age that the worst thing they can be is a woman. Women may lose respect for a man when he takes her for granted, "helps" around the house (i.e. doesn't take responsibility for it) and plays the big "I am" because they have a paid job and deign to provide money for their family etc. And that is before we get on to emotional/financial/physical abuse.

"the husband makes clear his commitment to, and love for, his partner. " Many abusers make a public show of their "love" and "commitment" to their partners. Non-abusers tend not to. They have no need to reinforce things like that.

Here?s UK-based but French-born columnist Anne-Elisabeth Moutet in last Saturday?s Telegraph:
?English women (seem to) prefer their dogs or their horses to their boyfriends (or husbands).?

Was that meant to convince us that Lott was right? I mean who is she? And from where did she draw this scientific conclusion? Ridiculous statement.

drjohnsonscat · 04/12/2012 10:38

That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship alto, but "helps about the house"??

Darkesteyes · 03/12/2012 21:30

Hes sounding more and more like an absolute mysogynistic twat.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 03/12/2012 21:03

I agree that familiarity can breed contempt, in LTRs it can be easy to slide into a lack of appreciation for the other, but that's not what I got from Lott's column. It was more that respect should automatically come with having a job and contributing financially to a family.

Agree with your point Darkesteyes

This week he praised married sex as it was more regularly available, albeit "with a bit of whining".

What an attractive picture that paints. Xmas Hmm

OP posts:
Darkesteyes · 03/12/2012 17:39

Heres some food for thought that Tim Lott didnt mention in his article. I wonder why! Xmas Hmm

www.datingish.com/757756967/men-are-more-likely-to-leave-their-sick-wives/

Darkesteyes · 03/12/2012 17:33

helps about the house,

See phrases like this imply that you think its the womans job. Oh and im working class by the way.

Altocumulus · 03/12/2012 17:30

Hmmm,

As a male in a long term relationship I found myself agreeing with much of what Tim Lott said, and think most of those dismissive commenters above rather prove his point. He has an important message and it is sad (but somehow doesn?t surprise me) that his heartfelt sentiments have been met with the mainly sneery responses above.

Looking at my own, and many of my friends? relationships, it struck me some time ago that there is often something rather unhealthy about British middle-class women?s treatment of their partners. Lott focuses on the lack of respect, the lack of credit and the low priority the male partner is given, and I have seen this many times in relationships where the husband makes clear his commitment to, and love for, his partner.

I have one friend who is a stand-out bloke, good provider, helps about the house, is always supportive of his wife and has brought up two of the loveliest kids. Whilst I consider his wife a friend, I absolutely hate the way she complains about him behind his back, sneers about his (few) failings and shows mild contempt for him whenever they?re in company. And this is learned behaviour - her mother was exactly the same with her father.

That is an extreme example, but I would say that a good half of my UK friends and family?s relationships show a similar, if less extreme, syndrome. Yes, I?m sure it cuts the other way as well, with many men behaving badly to their partners, but the point here is that Lott is making a specific point that is very rarely discussed.

And this seems to be a particularly British thing. My own relationships in the past with French and American partners have been quite different in this respect.

Here?s UK-based but French-born columnist Anne-Elisabeth Moutet in last Saturday?s Telegraph:
?English women (seem to) prefer their dogs or their horses to their boyfriends (or husbands).?

legojunkie · 30/11/2012 16:50

Has he got a bag o'shite book to sell?

UptoapointLordCopper · 30/11/2012 16:43

drjohsnsonscat I clicked on that fox news link, and the words "women are not women any more" flashed into my sight and I had to kill the tab immediately... Don't think I can handle reading it. Grin

EldritchCleavage · 30/11/2012 15:57

Well, the message in our group of friends seems to be that, as HolyGhost pointed out, there is just so much work involved in being a parent, and any lack of commitment to doing it is corrosive to a marriage.

DH is a SAHD and does hear plenty of those sorts of dismissive comments about men that Tim Lott seems to be talking about, and DH hates it. But that's from a particular minority of women. And that attitude usually seems to stem from the experience of being with a man who thinks as long as he brings in a wage you can ask him for nothing else, not even respect or fidelity.

It just shows to me that while most men would accept that they'd lose the respect of their fellow men if they behave like twerps, they think respect from women should be a given. Always.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 28/11/2012 19:46

Really liking some of the comments on this thread, you are all much better at articulating how I felt reading it.

I don't particularly expect credit for being the bread winner (how I hate that phrase). I had a job before I met DH and we had a child, he didn't congratulate me for being employed then nor does he now.

And if my partner didn't respect me I wouldn't bolt, I would first check to see if I was doing something to cause that feeling and if not, actually talk it through with them.

A couple of years ago DH (SAHP) told me nicely but bluntly that I wasn't pulling my weight at home. I sulked, complained and self-pitied for about half a day before deciding that he was right. So I got off my high "but I work full time and provide for the family" horse and started doing more cooking, housework etc. I was embarrassed that I had to be told.

OP posts:
drjohnsonscat · 28/11/2012 17:09

tunip I'm guessing it's the form that allows you to be right-on as a man, and bag yourself a vaguely thinking woman as a wife, and go on about how much you love your daughters but doesn't go as far as actually understanding what feminism means. And yes it does mean that men are no longer superior - they are not lesser - they're just the same as us. Tim does not like it really.

I'm guessing Tim would not be cool with knowing that Fox News have exactly the same viewpoint as him: www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/11/24/war-on-men/#ixzz2DJQ9goGj

Prepare to want to bleach your own eyes after reading this.

Sunnywithachanceofshowers · 28/11/2012 16:02

Turnip probably the form where the wife STFU and pats him on the head for being a grown up.

Grin Alameda

TunipTheVegedude · 28/11/2012 15:56

I laughed at his claim that most of his friends are fully signed up to feminism in one form or another. I wonder which form that would be then.

ShamyFarrahCooper · 28/11/2012 15:54

Fifty years of feminism has meant that the grievances of the wife are sanctified in a way that the grievances of a husband are not.

Yes really sounds like he is onboard with feminism with this line Hmm

AThingInYourLife · 28/11/2012 15:23

"Fifty years of feminism has meant that the grievances of the wife are sanctified in a way that the grievances of a husband are not."

:o

Yeah, bloody feminists! All about the grievances of wives.

I agree with "fuck the fuck off" as a response.

Although I don't agree with prioritising children above adults. All the members of my family are equally important. Including me.

Alameda · 28/11/2012 14:49

it would be nice if men did actually bolt in real life, instead of outstaying their welcome and having to be dragged away by the police etc when the relationship is over

summerflower · 28/11/2012 12:13

Horses bolt. Usually at speed, without consideration. Applied to men, it probably means they think the grass is greener on the other side and there is a new (undemanding) filly waiting, who won't nag them to do their bit. It's not an analogy which does anyone any favours.

drjohnsonscat · 28/11/2012 10:26

yy rosabud. It undermined his whole argument really. We are responsible, hard working, dedicated fathers and husbands. But when things aren't going right we walk out.

Frankly this really is what singles out committed parents. Would you bolt from your children? Ever? No.

I accept that marriages do break down and often there is fault on both side - but it's weird to argue that men "bolting" is proof that they have it harder as opposed to proof that they are just not as committed. In fact studies show that men do better, mentally and physically, out of marriage, than women. So there isn't any evidence at all for his assertion that men bolt because they are not treated right.

It's far more likely that they bolt because somehow they are semi-detatched from their families and they just emotionally can when things get tough.

I'm a big fan of the Swedish model of parental leave sharing - I think it's a really good way for both parents to get equally embedded in their children's lives - the joy and the drudgery. And I have a theory that you value your children and your family life more when you have had to sacrifice something (a part of your career, your own sense of identity as a separate person, your physical intactness, whatever it may be) to keep it together. I think if men had more opportunity to engage with their families in this deep way, they would be less likely to bolt. But that means sleeves rolled up, doing everything. And not expecting thanks or credit but viewing it as part of your new identity as a parent. Like the rest of us do.

rosabud · 28/11/2012 00:11

I have no idea if this bit is true or not:

All I can note is that in all the relationships I've seen die over the past 10 years, it's always been the man who bolts.

but IF it is true, he's hardly painting men in a great light, is he? "If the going gets a bit tough, if it doesn't go my way, well that's it I'm off with no thought for all my responsibilities or any hurt I may cause my children!"

And the word "bolt" has all sorts of suggestions, doesn't it? It's a rather powerful, action-packed, decisive, in charge sort of word. I suppose the phrase "it's always the man who slinks off" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.