Apparently I can't be a feminist because I changed my name when I married.

YY, that's what bugs me begonia. And you worry, don't you, because it's not actually normal (or it shouldn't be normal), to be the sort of bloke who thinks it reflects on him what his wife calls herself.

A lot of the women I know who've changed their names are feminists, and have lovely husbands who really would not give a flying fuck about it, and I think that's pretty simple. But increasingly I think women who're youngish are actually getting more pressure about it, and it's really off.

Darling new hubby. I want you to change your surname to mine from next saturday onwards. What do you mean no? Well I'm not very happy with that, why the hell not? Oh and also, I know you're a Dr./Professor/Captain/Major/Judge but I'd rather you didn't use that title any more.

Think about it.

I can't believe the Dr thing either. Why on earth do women put up with men like this?

owl - that's sort of what I'm trying to say, that it's an indicator of a bloke who may in fact be a bit of an idiot.

"her DH, it turns out, wasn't very happy with the idea of her keeping her name. And now he's not very happy with the idea she might call herself 'Dr' because he likes to think she is his wife, so could she please use 'Mrs' , and, and ..."

See, the thing is, this is breathtaking inequality writ large, and yet so many people just let it go by because a name, in itself, "doesn't matter". I can see it doesn't matter in the same, immediately practical way that things like equal pay matter, but I still those things are connected. How, how can a man in the modern western world, probably a perfectly nice, reasonable bloke in most ways, put pressure on his wife to become Mrs X instead of Dr Y and she just caves? How can either of them hold their heads up? It's because it's so normalised. But apply the acid test - what if it was the other way round - and it's immediately obvious that it's an unfair and outrageous thing to ask of someone.

Excellent, we'll sit here together under the 'Dragon' surname.

men who get upset about women not changing their name to theirs are idiots though and I wouldn't have changed my name if it was just done to appease a man idiot. I think that's a completely different point

LRD - I can put myself under that heading too

'You can be a feminist and choose to say stuff that's a bit thick.'

You called?

lancre - yep, with you there. It's an issue, but women shouldn't be made to feel shit because of it. But I do think it can by symptomatic of bigger issues, as begonia is saying.

It is still an issue I can get really angry about - like when someone says something snotty to me about it in RL, which happens - but maybe that is a slightly separate issue.

begonia - I do know what you mean. This is where I feel it gets into being a bigger issue than it might be, I reckon. Because I suppose it can be a litmus test of the attitudes of people around you. So it's not so much whether you change your name or don't, as how people react to your choice.

I know someone who's recently changed her name after saying she didn't want to, because her DH, it turns out, wasn't very happy with the idea of her keeping her name. And now he's not very happy with the idea she might call herself 'Dr' because he likes to think she is his wife, so could she please use 'Mrs' , and, and ...

It's not really about the name, is it, it's about him being a bit of a twit.

I actually prefer having a more common surname for the reason that it makes you less identifiable for people trying to stalk you via the internet

Pish Tosh

I was once told I was not a feminist because I did the tea run at work when I was pregnant.

I was also told I was not a feminist because I have always been an Avon rep.

You can be a feminist and choose to change your name.

You can be a feminist and choose to call your self Mrs.

You can be a feminist and choose to say stuff that's a bit thick.

I have heard the 'hated my surname' 'hate my family' reasons from so many women, what do the men who feel like this about their surname do? Quote

Change their name to their mother's surname - or at least that's what my husband did. He has had no contact with his father since he was eight years old. His mother reverted to her maiden name when she retired (her married name was her professional name) so Mr. M became Mr. N at the same time.

We have given our daughter this surname, we discussed it a lot before she was born, but it was really important to him that she had the same name. Especially as we weren't married when she was born (and unmarried fathers have few rights where we are).

We have since married, I have not changed my name, although his surname coupled with my first name is nicer sounding. It is certainly less common popular then mine. If you put my name into a search engine, it will throw up literally thousands of people, my first name with my husband's name only brings up about thirty! I occasionally wind up MIL and my husband by saying I will change to Ms. M but only if they refer to me as Mrs N.

I don't think changing your name makes you less of a feminist.

I agree totally LRD - they don't actually freely choose, they just think they do. Hence the confusion about things like working in a strip club being a "feminist" "choice". A woman makes that decision, so some people think feminism has been achieved - despite the fact that she makes it in a context where inequality is so normal and deeply ingrained, it seems like a normal thing to do.

I think that's exactly what is going on with name changing. So many women think it is a free choice and a nice, normal, harmless thing. Yet if they asked their husband to change his name to theirs, it would very rarely go down well. And in many cases what their "choice" means is that deep down, they don't want to be seen as too independent or scary. I also know women who didn't really want to do it, but did it because their husband was a bit shocked at the idea that they wouldn't, and they didn't want to upset him. And I know another couple where the woman has kept her name, but 12 years on from their wedding the bloke still moans about it.

I feel that the point, LRD, is that there really are bigger fish to fry. I am not saying that people on this thread shouldn't feel that name-changing is a big issue, but why should others be made to feel un-feminist because they have name-changed, or be told that they can't possibly have considered the implications of their decision?
We are all intelligent enough, men and women, to realise that the name-change expectation is a relic, but we do it anyway because it is tradition and it still has a function (naming the family unit) I don't believe anyone involved changes their modern beliefs about the equality of the marriage partnership on the basis of it, so I just don't think it's as important as people make out. To me, getting concerned about every piece of patriarchal dogma still present in society is like pissing in the wind, but I know that many people feel like those foundations are important and need to be changed so that we can move forwards with the bigger issues.
When I was in my late teens I did read a fair bit of pop-feminism which has stuck with me and often rears its head when I'm listening to friends doing down other women and their choices.
As an example, one of the the 'bigger fish' I'm talking about is the fact that SAHMs can be so quietly derided by women who on paper, tick every feminist box. There is, I agree, a lot of smuggery about. Last weekend, I heard a twenty-one year old talk scathingly about her mother who has 'never worked'. Said mother raised and partially home-educated her four children, but is now an embarrassment to her daughter. Her life is seen as 'wasted'.
The poxiest, most tedious receptionist job (I've had a few, before you ask!)has more worth than that of a SAHM, and I say that having had somebody yet again say that they could never be a SAHM because they 'just need the mental stimulation' that a paid job provides.
I know this argument has been done to death, but the whole thing is such a con. Many, many people, women and men, find stimulation and fulfillment through paid work, but I'll warrant that far more do not. People like Xenia epitomise the attitude I'm talking about. It's not feminism and wanting other women to have power and options; it's a love of superiority and a belief in a meritocracy; if only you did what I did, you would all be successful.

Bloody hell...I apologise for waffling incoherently off topic
DS wriggling around on my lap and he's just learned to bite Thanks for a good thread everyone.

Exactley what YouSeveredHead said.

Surely it's about the right to choose?

Isn't Feminism about having the freedom of choice????

(Nor do most men, I know.)

I've got to say, I do not believe women 'freely' choose to do those things, begonia.

They may do them, and they may do them despite lots of other options being made available, but women don't have free choice in a patriarchial world.

Why, though?

If porn were banned, wouldn't it be illegal?

If you say someone has the right to buy porn, that means that someone else's right not to be working in porn is going to be eroded.

OTOH if I have a right not to see top-shelf mags when I go to the newsagents', that takes away pervy neighbour bloke's right to see them.

You can't uphold everyone's choices.

I feel so strongly about this. Changing your name when you get married is a choice, yes, but that doesn't make it a good choice. The problem with doing things like this - unless men and women do them equally - is not whether it's right for you, but the message it sends to everyone else.

When a woman changes her name on marriage, but doesn't expect her husband to do the same, it tells her husband, her kids, her colleagues, and basically everyone in the world "As a woman I am not as important as him". It just does. Because his name becomes the name of the family, and hers is obliterated - and what that says is that she doesn't matter as much. EVEN IF it's practically trivial/irrelevant, that message is so importat because it is one of the many, many ways girls and boys get that message as they grow up. And that message, so deeply ingrained in so many people, leads directly to situations like a man beating up his partner and her putting up with it.

I know people will throw their arms up in horror and say :How dare you accuse me of causing DV by changing my name" - I don't mean any individiual is responsible, but by changing your name you are contributing to that deep inequality, and thereby directly counteracting feminism.

Feminism is NOT about choice. It is utter nonsense and wibble to say that if a woman chooses to do something, it must be feminist because she's made the choice herself. Wibble. Here are some of the things women freely choose to do - stay with men who beat them up, inflict FGM on their daughters, throw acid in their daughters' faces because they dishonoured the family by looking at a boy, wave their tits around for the Sun, rip their pubic hair out in agony so they can look like a child porn star for men who expect it.

Feminism is about equality and helping each other, and men, to see what that means.

My hard hat is on.

when i was single my intials were PB now i'm married my initals are Pb.

I've always doen this and got some stick from the blokes in work... but i'm not defined by who i married.....

I would ban porn, people taking illegal drugs, people eating unhealthy foods and all sorts of 'bad' choices- however they have the right to choose for the selves.

Yeah, that's true, no one is taking your choice away from you, exotic.

Feminism isn't choice. And the right to make a choice isn't the same thing as saying every choice must be made possible, because you can't. You can't give someone the right to buy porn, and someone else the right not to work in porn, can you? To take an example.

Names seem to me to be one of those issues where we do, to be honest, all have a reasonable amount of choice. I do wish we'd get to the point where everyone just used their own names as standard, but I'm not grudging anyone changing their name because there are sometimes very good personal reasons for it.

It still doesn't make me believe that feminism can possibly be all about choice, because it simply can't.

But if you choose to change your name, surely you have made a choice? and it is YOUR name anyway. My name has been my name for almost as long as my other name now. I wasn't forced by my husband to change my name