If you have a male DP/DH?

It's not just the doing, it's the thinking. And planning. That's the wifework bit, isn't it?

I sat in church yesterday listening to a sermon about unconditional love and forgiveness and stuff and boggled as I always do about the mismatch between a. the very true position that being mean-spirited is not the way to being happy, and in fact giving is honestly better than receiving, and to love is to be happy; and b. men take the piss out of women's time and energy constantly, without even realising it, and if you are not allowed to point this out, no one else is going to, and in the end you will die of exhaustion or melt out of resentment.

Forgiveness is great, but only if the action which requires forgiveness has now stopped. For forgiveness to bring happiness and harmony, the transgressor needs to understand what they did wrong, preferably apologize, and crucially, not do it again. Otherwise there's no incentive for the transgressor to change, and the 'forgiver' inevitably feels resentment.

DH does loads round the house and always has.

Mum deliberately brought my up to not end up being a housewife (like her). She didn't get me to help with housework, cooking or cleaning except if I wanted to. She taught me how to build brick walls, climb trees and grow veg intead.

One result of this is I'm quite happy with fairly low standards (though I do more since the DSs came along).

It also means DH and I see each other as equals in all the housey type things. We also both learnt to cook properly at university, so equals there too.

lostconfusedwhatnext you are right, I think it is a very fine line to try and tread. I am fortunate because I have never had to test whether my relationship would withstand the time= money = energy equation which is a very unemotional way of trying to retain equality in the home. I doubt it can be done because the unknown factor of emotion carries a weighting that i can't quantify.

I like to do things for the people I love but it doesn't really extend to housework, apart from cooking. I love to feed people Having said that I had a major operation two months ago and was unable to contribute to the chores for several weeks and I felt so terribly guilty that DP was doing everything and not complaining at all. I know that had our positions been reversed I would have done this too but I do feel grateful because I know that not everyone's partner (M or F) would have done the same. This is the resect and love elements of a partnership I guess.

Does he pull his weight around the house? And if so, how have you got things to that point?

Yes. I didn?t have to ?do? anything, it?s always been like this.

Mine has always done his fair share, we wouldn't have stayed married for nearly 30 years if he didn't!
I do the majority in the week because I work half the hours he does, at weekends I'd say that he does more than me , he's been off today and when I got in from work he'd done all the weekend's dishes (we'd been out for the whole day yesterday and it was 7pm when we got home) and cleaned the sink, plus made me a cuppa for when I got home.
I don't tidy up before I get into bed, I sit down and get undressed, throwing my clothes onto the floor on DH's side, then he picks them up and puts them in the basket , unless it's dark because I've gone to bed before him, I put his clean undies and socks on the bed because the way he arranges his stuff in his drawers irritates me.

I don't actually think that untidyness is a gender issue, the two messiest people I know are my SIL and my DD, my DD can't keep a room tidy for five seconds, she comes home from University and takes over the house, bags, shoes and folders all over the living room, piles of stuff in her bedroom, when she leaves again I find wet towels on her bed and half a dozen glasses strewn about, yet me and DH are fairly tidy people, she has always been the same.
I honestly don't think you can train people to be tidy, my SIL's house is like something off extreme hoarders, truly awful, yet she and DH were brought up exactly the same.

Waspie, I think that is a great idea, if your relationship can sustain it. The problem is that the request to account for things can seem petty or accusatory.

I sat in church yesterday listening to a sermon about unconditional love and forgiveness and stuff and boggled as I always do about the mismatch between a. the very true position that being mean-spirited is not the way to being happy, and in fact giving is honestly better than receiving, and to love is to be happy; and b. men take the piss out of women's time and energy constantly, without even realising it, and if you are not allowed to point this out, no one else is going to, and in the end you will die of exhaustion or melt out of resentment.
I have no idea how to reconcile my quasi-marxist, time = money = energy position with respect to how I have been effectively massively ripped off by men all my life and it is still happening, with the emotional truths that make other things so much more important.

I've seen Wifework referenced positively several times on FWR StewieGriffinsMom, I think I'll add it to my Xmas wishlist!

It's only my theory based on what I've read from threads on relationships and AIBU really dashoflime I also think it's a lot to do with the personality of the DH/P (whether male or female really).

I'm naturally a lazy cow and bloshy so I couldn't live in a relationship where the balance wasn't even between my partner and I. But we also have the benefit of earning approximately the same amount and working roughly similar hours, so neither of us can pull the "but I earn all the money and you sit around drinking coffee and being on MN/Planet Rugby so you should do all the housework" card.

If I were on maternity leave, or a SAHM, I think I would approach it by having a value (monetary or time) to a task and then add it up and when the amounts for both partners balanced anything in addition to that becomes shared 50/50. Easier said than done though I would imagine!

dashoflime, x-posted. I think your situation is very usual but still I think you can and should change it and should be assertive.

I think:

a lot of women don't admit to how much they do more than the man because they don't really think it is right, but don't want to LTB. So they cover up. Sometimes even from themselves.

a lot of women do more in unaccounted ways by:

doing things properly (so if the man and the woman alternate washing up, one time in two the job includes cleaning all the surfaces, putting a wash on with the cloths and tea-towels, collecting up all the lids and odd little things like that that end up scattered about the kitchen, washing and putting out the recycling etc). So in theory the job is shared, actually it only gets finished half the time, always by the same person, often enough to make the kitchen usable;
doing things while apparently doing other things (noticing and dealing with slightly grubby surfaces while the kids are in the bath; sorting post while on hold on the phone; tidying and cleaning the fridge while putting away shopping; etc);
Doing things that would just be left if she didn't do them, but she would feel shame where he wouldn't (making something homemade to bring to a bring-food-party; remembering birthdays, sending cards; certain aspects of the kids' appearances etc)

There are a million more ways where women do more. I have a dark cynical hypothesis that the convention of married couples sharing a bedroom is so that the man has somewhere nice to sleep because the woman will always tidy it before getting into bed. I do not share with my DP because he snores like a bastard. His room is vile, covered in mounds of clothes and books; mine has a couple of jumpers on a chair and everything else is put away. He finds his room depressing and resents me for having a nicer place to sleep but I don't know why he doesn't put his things away if he hates it so much. I think deep down and subconsciously he thinks that if we shared a room, as we "should", he wouldn't have to put things away to have somewhere tidy and calm and soothing to go to bed in.

Lostconfusedwhatnext...you could very well be right, because when we moved in I was amazed that the so-called tidy person he claimed he was had vanished to be replaced with a scatterbrained and lazy slob. But I will say in his favour he has improved 100 times.

I always think of that old sitcom Roseanne - there was a scene in it where the women in the factory said to Roseanne how great it was that she had found Dan, the perfect man....hardworking, tidy, thoughtful...

And she said 'What?? Do you think he started off like that????'

It stinks that men (including my DH) have it in their heads that the little woman will do all the gruelling, grinding drudge, but this CAN be changed I think.

My DH is very good at doing things that need to be done at home, e.g. emptying the dishwasher, hanging up the laundry, cooking the dinner, etc.

He isn't so good at organising the stuff that needs done, e.g. booking dental appts, sending cards, buying gifts, etc.

SamuraiCindy, I would run a mile from a man who says he doesn't like living with other men because of the mess. This often means he expects a woman to tidy up after him as well as herself.
I have heard it hundreds of times: "we're looking for a girl to take the 3rd room in a shared house... we've got two guys in the other two rooms and we don't want to live in a house with all guys". This means: Friend and I (both male) have decided to live together because we like each other and it will be a laugh, we want a girl too to pick up the pizza boxes as this is obviously what girls are for.

DONT MARRY ONE OF THOSE

I actually only know one couple with a genuinely fair housework sitch. I have seen the woman scream at her husband because he thoughtlessly left dirty dishes out for her to wash when they had both been at work all day. This was years ago, she sorted him out, some would say (on here) that she has been abusive in the way she expressed her anger about being expected to act as a servant. they seem happy though, a very solid couple.

My DH had me fooled before we moved in and got married. He kept telling me that he would NEVER again live with other blokes because they are too messy and smelly and he is so tidy. So I was thinking....WOW!! This guy is great. Then when we moved in, I discovered his idea of tidy is different from mine. He left clothes on the floor, didn't clean the bathroom/toilet when HE made it messy, left things strewn over counters, didn't iron clothes. Yet for some reason he thought I shouldn't mind as compared to other men he thought he was pretty good!!!

So I just kept (gently) asking him to do these things when needed.

He has definitely improved, but he works 50+ hours a week, including night shifts, so I do far more than him, as well as the majority of childcare.

He doesn't do it particularly well but he tries and to be honest this is what matters...that he loves me and listens to me and tries.

Sorry, that was v waffly

I read on MN ages ago that 'equal amounts of leisure time as a starting point' for couples with children, is the way forward, regardless of how childcare and household tasks are split. That's how we try to run things.

I'm a SAHM - well just, we have an 11mo but I'm not returning to work.

I find that because I have responsibility for DS all day, so much of it is meal planning, shopping and prep, making sure the house is clean for him to play in, he has clean clothes etc, and also just because I am at home more I am noticing what needs to be done and it bugs me if there is dirt or dishes or whatever. I'm sure if DH was at home he'd be the same. So anyway I do most of the housework because it just makes sense.

Children add a kind of self-perpetuating housework though, don't they - it's like chasing my tail sometimes! I definitely do tasks that DH used to do before DS came along and we were both working though. Tbh as we're in the lucky position to afford for me to be at home with DS, which is what we both wanted, we need DH's career to fly so we actually have any spare money - it's easier for him to work late, focus at work and so on ifhe knows I'm taking care of food and cleaning, mostly. I'm aware it's a pretty traditional arrangement but I think as long as you arealways aware and don't let either partner take the other for granted then it's ok. I often grump about what a hard day I've had to DH, who's been out earring a crust all day! He'd never dare suggest that his day has been harder than mine

I think it's difficult when a woman is on maternity leave to get a balance because a woman will tend to take on the housework while she's off, but then the man gets out of the habit and by the time she goes back to work they have settled into an unequal distribution of chores.

How about a rota? This would ensure you would both have free time for your personal interests.

My DH does all the household stuff. Washing. Dishwasher. Putting clothes away. Hovering.

Not all by himself but he does more than me.

DH and I do ok on the sharing front, mostly I think because he is naturally tidier than me and because he is the at home parent. It has taken a little while to get to an arrangement we're happy with, though.

And within that 'equal' share we each monopolise certain things, generally on a fairly traditional gender split because this happens to play to our strengths. While DH can cook, he doesn't like doing it. I love it, so I always cook, which can still get to feel burdensome at times. DH has now said he'll cook once a week. On the other hand, I never empty bins, tidy the front and back yards etc-DH always does it. We do our own laundry mostly, though DH does some of mine while I'm at work. We both do the children's laundry and the household linen.

We got to this point by talking about what needed doing, and about the jobs we hated and trying to make sure the other did them (e.g. DH hates washing up pans-we've got a dishwasher-but since I don't mind that, I do it. He always sweeps up, for a similar reason) and most importantly, doing the work together. We try hard to avoid a situation where one person is swanning around doing nothing while the other is doing a boring chore. We also always thank each other when we notice something's been done.