"I don't like being called a feminist. I'm a woman. That's it."

LRD - agree with your view about the older generation. Speaking is one of the older generation - DH and I were married 46 years ago, so that gives posters an idea how ancient we are....my DH is the least sexist man I know and his forward-looking views would put many a youngster to shame.

Why is ageism OK when racism isn't and sexism is (hopefully) on its way to not being OK?

Old farts come in all ages namechangeguy!

Thank you for enlightening me namechange. Oddly enough I (and most of us here, I think) have thought of these possibilities as well, you know.

Ah, I see. So it is rude and offensive to speak of 'men', but fine to speak of 'the older generation'?

What an interestingly hypocritical point of view.

'The older generation' include, these days, a large number of second-wave feminists. They're not just sexist elderly men, oddly enough.

Therefore, it is unlikely they explain All The Misogyny In The World, and even more unlikely they explain, say, rape and porn use. Which is sadly most certainly not restricted to the 'older generation'.

The older generation have a different set of values re gender roles. It is one possible explanation, but not the only one. It may explain the man's reaction, and why so few women were represented at a business function, or it may not. Is that not a possibility, based upon what we have been told?

I know, Wilson, I know. .

It's the older generation, of course.

And who is actually grabbing her and leering over her in bars? Aliens, I presume.

The other thing is this kind of stuff makes me feel so old. The fact that things are more equal for younger women is A Good Thing. I don't want to take away from the achievements of the women who went before her to create a society where this young woman can feel equal. I feel like I'm standing in the background, sucking a lemon, muttering 'just you wait, just you wait.'

(Also. Learn to proof-read Ms Sheriff. It's gender neutral and will help you immensely in your journalistic career.)

Precisely, Wilson. If all these young men regard all the young women as equals, who is putting the horrible stories about sexual humiliation of women on the University Confessions facebook pages?

'So why don't we already have equality now? '

One possible reason, LordCopper, is that sexism is still alive and kicking amongst the older generation, who see society as having pre-defined roles for men and women because those are the values they were raised with. It takes time for those people, especially in certain professions, to move on and be replaced by younger, more enlightened people. These things take time. But if women continue to outperform men in education as we are seeing now, their progress has to continue all the way up to the top.

No, I didn't, namechange. Read the post again and you will see.

upto - yeah, that sounds familiar.

I think blue is spot on about what is happening, though.

And I also think there is a pressure on young women to demonstrate that they're not 'those' feminists - they're still pleasing to men.

I think actually, getting uncomfortable when you realize how differently women who're not so privilged are getting it, is when lots of women start out being feminists.

It all makes me feel very sad and powerless tbh. Even if, as Bluestocking said, all the men of this writer's acquaintance (all of them?) do regard her as equal, what about the rest of the world? What about her contemporaries in other countries who can't access education? The woman a mere few years older than her in Ireland who died because she couldn't an abortion? The friends of her parents who can't find work due to years of SAHM-ing? It's just so narrow a view and so, so privileged. Ick.

Isn't it interesting? There are many men who would be furious if you even hint that many people are sexist. I saw someone's (a man) face change when we talked about a networking event and only said that my friend was one of the two women present among 60 men and what did he think, as a man. And he was angry that we should bring gender into it! So it is obvious that sexism is offensive to (some) men as well as women. So why don't we already have equality now?

Because you called me stupid, at 15.39. Rather uncalled for, I thought, during an exchange of views.

I very much doubt that Lucy Sherriff is as silly as this piece makes her sound. She's probably writing to generate some controversy. But I have noted a depressing tendency among very young women to imagine that, just because their men friends (apparently) regard them as in every way equal to themselves, that the struggle is over.

Ah, come on, 'ladies', it's me and fastidia, surely?!

namechange - erm, ok. I'm not stupid, not sure why you get points for not calling me stupid. I did assume you were confused. Was there some reason you feel I shouldn't have clarified?

I don't honestly care why you disagree - IMO you're wrong about male violence, but this isn't the thread to discuss it on. The issue is simply that you got up in arms with another poster for accurately representing your views, and insisted she shouldn't characterise you in this way. Then it became clear you did, indeed, fit her characterisation.

Why did you bother to do this? Should she lie, just so you can feel nice and happy?

How's about this: maybe if you do actually agree with those things fastidia has pointed out many non-feminists agree with, you should consider that, and admit to it, instead of being furious your views have been correctly identified?

• Fourth sentence should begin 'I think you are saying...

I was genuinely confused, LRD. I see what you are getting at now. And see, I still haven't called you stupid. You think you are saying that because I did not agree with every point that Fastidia made, I am one of the oppressors. Okay.

I am going to pick up on one of the points where you and I disagree, and hope that we can remain civil. Specifically, does society collude in male violence (against women and children). I believe this to be untrue because society deems such violence to be illegal, and such acts are punishable. Would you agree or disagree?

Wow LRD, looks like you are responsible for the downfall of feminism. I'm off to get my pitchfork. Hope you can take it!

It's true, LRD. You, yes YOU, are the reason why so many women and men reject feminism. :(

FFS.

I have no dislike of anyone here. I don't know anybody, so it would be illogical. I disagree with some people's view, and have stated my objections with reasons. I have not called anybody stupid, for example....

I have also stated that it is because of specific views that some feminist brands are failing to connect with what might be considered to be their target audience, such as young, educated, professional women. Look, I quoted a specific view at 15.26;

Feminism can only be popular in the current climate when it espouses all the stuff men want .............................. real liberation is lapdancing and expressing our power....

That is a view, not an individual. There is a difference.

It was a response to your post, namechange.

No, you don't believe these things, just as I suspected. You are indeed one of those men described.

It's not an accusation - you admitted it yourself!

Goodness me, what a temper tantrum.

fastidia - ah, yes. 'men=people', naturally ... that's how some 'people' think.

I love the way men who don't like specific women, always say that it's because of tht woman that people don't like feminism.

Hilarious.

'Ah, so no.'

What does that mean? What is it referring to?

If you mean do I know my point of view before understanding the issues, you are correct. Do you think it's okay to accuse someone of something, not prove anything, and sound all smug and sarcastic about it? Fantastic - go you. Yet another example of why so many women and men reject this brand of feminism. Please carry on.

Ah, so no.

You're exactly who fastidia was talking about, yet you still felt the need to slap her down for correctly characterising a lot of men, including you.

How sad.

Btw: nope, still not your secretary. So, no, I won't be faffing about looking at your past posts to 'prove' anything when I am perfectly capable of asking you (as I did), and requiring you to lift a finger by replying.

Sorry if that disturbs your immense sense of self importance, but you see, round these parts we call it a 'conversation' when both people take part.

Anti-porn? Some, not all when between consenting adults.
Anti-lapdancing? Yes, as expressed in here weeks ago;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1591438-Article-about-strip-clubs-in-the-Guardian?pg=1&x=0&y=0

Does sexism exist? Yes.
Male violence? Yes, anti. In fact, I would take it wider and say I am anti-violence full stop.
Does society collude in that violence? No, it is illegal.

Still, LRD, you can carry on making groundless accusations, and then not be bothered to prove them. Feel free.

What I do not do is group people and tell them what they think. If we can know what men as a group think and want, can we know what Asian people as a group think, or Jews, or women?