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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anyone articulate why I don't like this?

45 replies

madwomanintheattic · 06/11/2012 23:57

Just had an email from school letting me know that the grade fours are participating in two externally facilitated programmes - 'boy's council' and 'girl's circle'.

My teeth were itching at quite why the boys needed a council, and the girls got a circle, but I clicked on the link about these programmes, and it appears to be a whole industry here

I assume this is all for the best of intentions, but I am still uncomfortable that an organization supposed to be about breaking down gendered stereotypes uses 'council' and 'circle' in a gender exclusive manner (and that apparently the girls need friendship training, to prevent peer feuds).

Someone please have a rational look at this, and persuade me I'm overreacting. And it's All Good. It must be, right?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 23/07/2019 18:48

I think the update is interesting enough to have reanimated a zombie thread. The OP was right to be uneasy, it seems.

Coffeeandchocolate9 · 23/07/2019 15:56

Definitely interesting, thank you.

nettie434 · 23/07/2019 11:50

Hoodathunkit Ah, I'd missed your point about the reason for reviving the thread. I was irritated with myself for not noticing. Agree with CharlieParley that it can be illuminating to see old posts in current context. Thanks for links and your work putting them together.

sakura184 · 23/07/2019 11:23

I your I instincts are correct. Girl's circle, like a knitting circle or something?
While "council" connotes public decision making.

CharlieParley · 23/07/2019 11:22

Well I think this is one of the few reasons to resurrect an old threat - because your comment adds useful information AND provides an interesting insight. Here was someone (the OP) who felt uneasy but couldn't quite lay her finger on what the issue was. Six years later someone else who was also concerned has put enough material together to do just that.

However, as Mumsnetters do seem to generally be opposed to resurrecting threads, might it be a little less contentious to start a new thread and cross-link the two?

hoodathunkit · 23/07/2019 11:03

Oh ffs, Zombie Thread Alert

Is it not OK to resurrect an old thread if it illustrates a point about serious abuses of women and girls?

I cannot make you read my earlier post or the preceding old posts of course, but I think they are useful in understanding how various cultic groups use MLM MOs to recruit women and girls and to get them to believe batshit insane stuff

OhtheHillsareAlive · 22/07/2019 22:42

oh bugger

sorry Blush

OhtheHillsareAlive · 22/07/2019 22:41

My teeth were itching at quite why the boys needed a council, and the girls got a circle

Ahhhh so this is where it starts.

In my field (HE), women get the "Springboard" training for leadership, while men get the "Navigator" programme. Similarly incenses me, but can't quite put my finger on it enough to take it up with management.

I've never done one of these courses, having got to a senior professorship with hard work & excellent mentoring (and giving up having any other kind of life, or family), but I gather the ones for women are basically like Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady :

"Why can't a woman be more like a man?"

nettie434 · 22/07/2019 22:31

Zombie Thread Alert

Blush I am terrible at not checking the dates on trending threads as well

LassOfFyvie · 22/07/2019 22:24

I don't have an issue with calling it a circle.
Inasmuch as I can work out what they are trying to do for boys and girls "circle" is a far more appropriate noun than "council"

Council is wrong here. Councils run things- they make and implement decisions. A something or or other is run by a Council.

It's the wrong word.

The constant references to "boys and young men" compared with "girls" is very irritating.

TheInebriati · 22/07/2019 22:20

Oh ffs, Zombie Thread Alert.

TheInebriati · 22/07/2019 22:19

Is this in the UK? I think its a breach of The Equality Act.

nettie434 · 22/07/2019 22:17

I am very disappointed that they called this a girls circle. What a missed opportunity to have a nice sewing circle so the girls can discuss their little worries while doing something useful like sewing lost buttons on men's important suits or running up a pretty frock.

Angry
LassOfFyvie · 22/07/2019 21:24

Everything about it is setting my teeth on edge. All that gushing, over blown, hyperbolic and largely meaningless guff on their website.

Both words are sacred bleh ?

Imnobody4 · 22/07/2019 20:55

Yes, just one look at the web site screamed creepy religious cult to me. Would treatvwith great suspicion.

hoodathunkit · 22/07/2019 20:39

This is an old thread so forgive the thread necromancy -

There is a link I would like to share and some further information regarding the "girl's circles" promoted by the organisation in the OP the One Circle Foundation

The link is here
<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OcXmaYedNZoJ:familycourtmatters.org/2012/09/17/where-the-pyramid-meets-the-circle-meets-the-trademarkr-pt-1/+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OcXmaYedNZoJ:familycourtmatters.org/2012/09/17/where-the-pyramid-meets-the-circle-meets-the-trademarkr-pt-1/+&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

I have not read the entire thing - it is very long - just skim read it, but a concerned person has put a lot of work into researching the MLM elements of the One Circle Foundation and I thought that readers would benefit from reading it.

From a skim read it is clear that the linked author's concerns about the OCF mirror serious concerns I have about various sinister cults using a MLM model to run "women's circles".

This is happening internationally and these women's circles are springing up amongst all kinds of religious, spiritual, therapy and cultic groups.

I do not believe that the OCF is the root and cause of all of the circles I am concerned about, however it is very interesting as it seems to be a significant branch of the tree .

I googled for the names of the founders of the OCF and the founders appear to be involved in message boards and websites linked to the Mormon aka LDS religious movement.

This is interesting as many MLM businesses started in Salt Lake City and were started by Mormon entrepreneurs.

There is also significant concern expressed in the skeptical community regarding some "troubled teen" residential schools run by Mormon entrepreneurs. I will find and link when I have a moment

Another concerning red flag is the cultural appropriation of First Nations and Native American ritual and symbolism that permeated the "girls circle" movement.

Another is the embracing of the prevalent, unquestioning, illogical transgender discourses with which we are all so familiar.

some further links for anyone interested

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20180831125030/onecirclefoundation.org/about_us.aspx" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20180831125030/onecirclefoundation.org/about_us.aspx

www.facebook.com/OneCircleFoundation/

twitter.com/hashtag/GirlsCircle?src=hash

madwomanintheattic · 08/11/2012 18:36

That's a really interesting explanation, kritiq. And much less adversarial to point out the root cause, rather than focusing on the end result.

I get the impression that they are trying to broaden the definitions of masculinity, but I don't think I'm getting the same vibe towards femininity...

Coincidentally, this is running at the same as dd2's teacher is emailing me to give permission for social support. Dd2 does not meet the patriarchal definition of femininity, she has both a physical disability and is gifted, which leaves her at the bottom of the potential BFF pile. I'm pretty used to viewing this fact from a disability model, but hadn't really considered it from a patriarchal viewpoint... Hmm. For her it isn't feud or conflict (yet) just dismissal due to not fitting in.

OP posts:
AbigailAdams · 08/11/2012 16:16

I wasn't dismissing conflict between girls at all. But obviously boys have peer feuds. There is plenty of bullying between boys and from boys to girls too. So why is it only girls being taught about relationships and "being nice" to each other? And as for online bullying there are plenty of high profile cases where girls have been bullied by boys and had photos distributed without their permission etc. My experience (anecdotal) is that male-dominated chat sites etc tend to be far harsher than the (very few) women dominated sites. As summerflower says there is a certain male bonding going on with objectifying and devaluing women. So surely we should be targetting ALL sources of bullying and peer pressure not just expecting the girls to deal with this shit.

SolidGoldYESBROKEMYSPACEBAR · 08/11/2012 00:03

This looks like superstition-based bullshit to me and I would be protesting vigorously. Perhaps by marching up to the school and hitting the board of governers over the head with a copy of Delusions of Gender.

summerflower · 08/11/2012 00:01

I guess the point may be that a good deal of male bonding seems to encompass devaluing women, which I think is a different issue - surely it would be better to engage with the other sex than have them in a separate meeting.

summerflower · 07/11/2012 23:57

Re the peer feuds, DD's school has a peer mediation system - it is not gendered. Both sexes act as peer mediators, both sexes can access peer mediation. I realise this not what you are saying, but I would be wary of saying that it is only girls that have conflicts and police each other's behaviour. How else does patriarchy work if men/society don't reinforce/police masculine norms too?

I'd be really curious to see any research or evidence which suggests that girls use social media to be more cruel/exclusive than boys.

KRITIQ · 07/11/2012 23:15

Ooooh, it's "they're" and not "their" in the last but one paragraph! :(

KRITIQ · 07/11/2012 23:13

Gotcha! Okay, as you say, I can see why an approach with some links into First Nations ways could be relevant, and I get the slightly hokey hippy empowerment stylie language from over the border.

Is there anyone you can talk to at the school about this - about the concerns about use of language and the indirect messages in there?

I've never heard the term "peer feuds," but I think I know what they're talking about, based on my own experience of work with girls and young women. I'd never dismiss it as bitchiness and it's not something that's "fixed" by getting girls to be "naice" to each other, either.

Girls are conditioned from birth to conform to an ideal of femininity - the pink princess whose greatest value is in being passive and attractive, through the sexualised messages in popular culture that reinforce this, adding a layer of need to be sexually attractive and available. It sets up a sort of competition based on who's the smartest, the sportiest, the most creative, but who conforms to whatever the current "feminine norm" best. That can cause conflicts. Sure, there's lots of rhetoric about BFFs and stuff, but really in our society, female solidarity, the sisterhood, isn't something that is genuinely encouraged, or even well tolerated. Think about it.

Although gender stereotypes and "norms" of femininity come from the patriarchal establishment and exist to maintain male entitlement, it's young women who seem most effective in policing each other's behaviour. They can be really brutal, not because girls are "naturally" that way or "more cruel than boys" (as the old trope goes,) but because the "rules" of the game dictate that they are supposed to do this. Girls who aren't seen to conform can be treated very harshly, and who's in and who's out can change seemingly on a whim. I think facebook and bbm have magnified this - made it easy to tease, to coerce, to bully, to publicly shame and it's not something that ends at the school gate or can be fixed just by finding a new group of friends. The social networking stuff is there 24/7, totally integrated with the "real world" for most young people. Things can kick off really easy there and leak over into real life shitstorms amongst friends and associates.

It's the old teaspoons to empty the ocean thing, but I think part of the solution is supporting girls to be able to pick apart and bust some of these "this is how you must be," messages, build up self-esteem that takes a battering every time they hear a joke about rape, see a perfect photoshopped celebrity, told their a bitch or a minger on their facebook wall.

I probably haven't explained this too well (v tired and still flu-ey!) but all thought this Circle thing may be a bit iffy, I can see what they're trying to achieve and I don't think we can afford to dismiss completely the issue of conflicts between girls, and particularly the wider patriarchal context within which these are actually very much encouraged.

madwomanintheattic · 07/11/2012 19:47

Alberta (but deffo not the oil sands bit Wink) - I live in lentil weaver central, in a wildlife corridor, in probably the most woo town on the planet. Yoga is practically compulsory. Sorry to disappoint, Xenia.

We are very close to First Nations communities, so I can see the political appeal of using a circle/council format, although I'm not sure that's deliberate. I'm not sure if the school on the reserve runs the same programme (notwithstanding obvious questions regarding first nations rights and segregation, which is a separate issue). I am just uncomfortable that it might be reinforcing subconsciously what it was supposed to be (apparently - although now i'm second-guessing myself, summerflower, i was certain i had seen that written on the blurb somewhere) concerned with breaking down...

Yy, the 'peer feuds' thing was grindingly poor. Girls are biatches, no doubt...

OP posts:
AbigailAdams · 07/11/2012 19:27

"prevent peer feuds"????? Wtaf? Not sure what on earth they are implying there. Girls need to be "nice"? Girls are "bitchy"? Do boys not have these issues? Very sexist.

And as for boys discussing doing things and girls discussing what they look like, nothing like supporting the objectification of women. Agree with StarGhostTail. Talking about body issues promotes body issues.

And surely boys need to talk about relationships/families just as much as girls (if not more) given the levels of DV and sexual assault, 1 in 20 young men saying they would have sex with a sleeping woman, the increase of men killing their (ex)partners. It is not up to women to maintain relationships.

Pretty shocking on many levels including the wording.

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