Is it really ok that some GPs can refuse to prescribe the MAP

interesting point prom !

solid given that they dont have to make this information publicly available i am assuming htere is no way of finding out statistically what %male drs hold this view as opposed to female? unless there has been an annonymous survey?

The receptionist handles your notes and would probably therefore have access to the information anyhow.

I suggested it only as the obvious way of securing an appropriate appointment, and the individual would have to weigh up the relative importance of the inconvenience factors posters have listed above against their views on what they say to the receptionist. And of course set that against the likelihood of the doctor having opted out. Which rather brings it back to my enquiry about how widespread use of this opt out it.

yes they are prom which reminds me when at uni i had a gp do exactly that! and this was a university drs surgery so LOADS of female students needing contraception!

solid as they are obviously not required to make it public can we ask our surgery fi they have any gps who hold this view? i am intending to ask next week as i dont want to be treated by any gp that holds this view, but i wonder if they will refuse to tell me?

I would be very reluctant to tell the GP's receptionist that I wanted an abortion. I would be worried about whether they were anti-abortion and inclined to be judgy.

Doctors should be required to make it public, really obviously so, ie on everything in the surgery that lists the available doctors, that they are superstitious woman-hating fucknuggets opposed to contraception and abortion. And they should not be allowed to work in practices where they are the only GP for miles around. Their human rights to hold beliefs should not trump other people's human rights to access perfectly legal medical treatments.

Honestly, what would be so bad about a practice listing that read 'Dr A, Dr B, Dr C (opposed to abortion and contraception) Dr D.' So that patients all know, and should they need contraception or abortion advice, be able to request appointments with anyone other than Dr C?

blackcurrents exactly any wait would be unreasonable for me as well, logistically with 5 children, including a toddler, school runs, pre-school runs and my dps job (shift work and odd hours) it is a pain anyway to sort out a drs app, so to go and then be sent away would be a nightmare. as you say a women may have had to build the confidence to make the app and there could be any number of reasons why that time and ONLY that time is convenient for her and she should not have to rearrange. it is a form of power/control that these drs can use over women, they may well not see it like that but that is what it is,

sorry but i am NOT telling the receptionsist why i need an app full stop and certainly would not in the case of map or referral for an abortion! no way.

i am actually going to go down to my surgery tomorrow and request this information, they should be able to tell me? and if not i will say that i want to know and i dont think its unreasonable to ask. i actually dont want to be treated by a dr that would refuse me the map or referral for an abortion. No treatment from them full stop as i disagree with their view and as a gp they are in a postion of power and responsibilty and i am not sure it is right that they can withhold the right to choose from a woman. even if they dont say it they ARE making a judgement, and they wont have to say it for the woman to know that.

i would also be interested to know statistically fo the drs that DO refuse to treat women needing map or abortion what % are male and what % are female.

blackcurrants I don't think you have any idea how safe and comforting all your posts sound

you get it

"Agree. But I have no idea how I would find out my GP's views on this without said consultation".

Usually unpopular on MN, but you tell the receptionist why you want the appointment. They would then know who to book you with.

MonthlyChangeling it wouldn't feel reasonable if I were being paid by the hour, and the 20 minute wait would mean I'd miss another hour - or two - of work. It wouldn't feel reasonable if I were there with my toddler, who was going to have a screaming fit in precisely 20 minutes if we weren't home for a nap. It wouldn't feel reasonable if the reason I were seeking an abortion was to escape a violent partner, I was at the Doctor's in secret, and he's back home in 20 minutes.

It would be okay for me, now - but I'm in a privileged position - relatively flexible work, good childcare, supportive spouse, etc. I am aware how fortunate I am, and that my life wasn't always like this, and that most women don't have the good fortune I have.

How things like this affect vulnerable women matters. Vulnerable women view their GPs as people who will help them, and they need to know which ones will, and which ones won't, before it is actually the moment they need that help.

I would hopefully find out because I would be informed of any special arrangements (such as refusal to offer certain services on conscience grounds) when I registered at the practice. I'd also hopefully see this in any relevant literature/web presence produced by the practice, and it would be reasonable for there to be a notice at reception/waiting area.

It doesn't matter how much the GP in question "loves the sinner", he/she is in effect making a judgement about the morals of that person and it would be kinder to avoid making that judgement so publicly (ie walk back to reception/hurried conversation about rearranged appointments/"sit here and stew a bit longer, thanks love")

If you've maybe spent days plucking up the courage to make the appointment, I can't see how it can possibly be helpful to be told half way through your story "can I just stop you there and refer you to my colleague".

I don't think any doctor would refuse to refer to an EPAU in the event of ectopic pregnancy, no matter what their views. The hippocratic oath would prevent it, because to deny that referral would mean certain harm for the woman.

this has made me think that i am going to check to see if any of my gps hold this view and if they do then i shall refuse to see them actually.

i think it is ok to opt out as long as they arrange for the woman to see another dr IMMEDIATELY, and i mean immediately, even if that means squeezing her in between other appointments, she should NOT be made to wait because a dr morally objects to her treatment. i mean it wouldnt happen for any other treatment ie can drs refuse to treat alchoholics or drug addicts, what male treatment is comparable? it does discriminate against women and makes an already fraught/stressful experience worse.

when you sign up at a gp surgery it should be made clear to you that certain drs will not refer you for treatment/give you the map. to turn up to an app (which was prob a pita to get and the woman is probably already feeling emotional) and be turned away is WRONG!!

and yes for me it would be a pita, for an app for the map or for abortion (which i have thankfully not needed, apart from the map once) i would have to arrange an app when i could get childcare, around school runs etc, its logistically a pita and for most app i take at least my toddler with me as its so hard to arrange them around dps shifts that i only do it if i REALLY need to.the map or for an abortion would be a situation where i would really need childcare in place, so to ahve arranged it and then be turned away i would be VERY cross.

*makes mental note to check with drs surgery if any of my gps object to map/abortion and if so to put them on my do not see list.

The time to find out that your GP is against MAP/TOP is absolutely not in the middle of a consultation - no matter how nice he is about it.

Agree. But I have no idea how I would find out my GP's views on this without said consultation.

Re. ectopic pregnancies - I had a bit of bleeding when about 9 weeks pregnant with DS, and my GP suspected an ectopic pregnancy. She got me an immediate appointment at the early pregnancy assessment so that they could do a scan to check it out. I would imagine that's normal practice for suspected ectopic pregnancies, regardless of the doctor's feelings on abortion. I can't imagine the GMC looking on it kindly if a patient died because a GP refused to refer a suspected ectopic pregnancy just in case it might result in an abortion.

Totoro that's an area of concern. There are some women (say, with DC under 5 who they have to bring to their appointments, or who do poorly paid work/ shift work that they can't easily leave to get to appointments) for whom it would be very tricky.

The time to find out that your GP is against MAP/TOP is absolutely not in the middle of a consultation - no matter how nice he is about it.

Absolutely.

It is not actually a religious clause, it is a moral one. It is part of the Abortion Act as part of the reason SOME doctors were opposing the act was because they felt it was against the principle of "first do no harm."

Very few opt out, but for those who do it is a right enshrined in law.

(But lecturing a woman against abortion is firmly against the rules).

Some people who are anti-abortion are not religious.

What happens in a very small, rural area? Where there may only be one doctor for miles? What happens then?

I think that's fine weegiemum, as long as he makes sure that patients at his surgery know about his opt out before they need that service.

The time to find out that your GP is against MAP/TOP is absolutely not in the middle of a consultation - no matter how nice he is about it.

I have a friend whose termination was delayed by almost 2 months by a less scrupulous GP unfortunately. He got away with it because he did a right number on a vulnerable 17 year old and made her feel like a dirty, shameful waste of space. She was hardly about to find the nerve to report him to the GMC. Shame his delicate feelings didn't run to basic human kindness.