Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

Sabrina, I don't think you are reading me correctly. I will try one more time;

1. Sexual assault could happen outside an LDC.
2. It could also happen outside a pub or nighclub, a chip shop or a racecourse.
3. One is too many.
4. We cannot prove that they occur because of the existence of 'LDC culture' beyond reasonable doubt.
5. point 4 is true because assaults occur in cultures with no LDC's (and no mainstream porn).

Is this justification for 'LDC culture' (i.e. a society where they are allowed to exist)? I don't know. I find them a bit discomforting on some vague personal level, but just because they affect my sensibilities shouldn't mean necessarily banning them. I get the impression that a lot of the objections in here are at this slightly vague personal sensibilities level too.

In short, I have not seen a feminist argument for banning LDC's other than 'we don't like them, they cause men to look at women funny, and could lead to women being assaulted'. That, for me, is incomplete.

GetAll - so women (including your daughter) need to just get used to sexual objectification - because it's not going away. No point at all in fighting it?

namechangeguy - are you denying it could happen? Is there no way in the realms of your consciousness that a man could assault a woman after being in a LDC?

How many sexual assaults outside these places is OK in your book? If no sexual assaults outside happened - is that a justification for them? Or is the sexual objectification of women too high a price?

GetAll - you acknowledge that LDCs contribute to overall sexual objectification of all women. Can you please explain why then, you think that improving working conditions of the dancers is the answer?

Because I don't believe they're going away, only underground if you ban it which of course is bad news for the dancers.

Sabrina, I can no more prove it one way or the other than you can. That was my point, not that it definitely does or does not happen. I am saying that there is room for doubt. Do you accept this or deny it?

My logic is that these assaults occur in cultures whether or not there are LDC's, so perhaps they do not contribute to the problem.

Namechangeguy- a legal transaction can't result in an illegal assault? Really? Your naivity is touching- but how on earth can you know that??

GATT this is the key for me better working conditions and better protection for the dancers. This has been the stand point from the beginning with Leeds. Unionisation failed in America but their is a completely different culture to the UK and unions working with dancers is in my own opinion is the best future. If the clubs are forced into European Court and with the current UK licensing law saying clubs can't be closed on moral grounds I just see a council losing and spending a lot of council tax payer money in the process. One council loses and I cannot see another stepping up whilst if one club lost I can see another and another going to court and learning from the process till they win. Better we avoid courts and keep some power with the councils than have all councils running scared of LDCs.

GetAll - you acknowledge that LDCs contribute to overall sexual objectification of all women. Can you please explain why then, you think that improving working conditions of the dancers is the answer?

How will improved working conditions alter the fact that sexual objectification of all women is happening?

I can see what you are getting at, Sabrina, but there is a massive difference. You are suggesting that a legal transaction can lead to an illegal assault. I find a fault in your logic directly linking one to the other, because as I said earlier, these assaults happen in cultures where there is no saucy jiggling. So perhaps if you stop the LD's, men would carry on doing it anyway. In which case, all you have done is closed a legitimate industry and put women out of work.

Sabrina,

For me I agree that LDCs are going to contribute towards objectification. I'm not sure how much they do in the general scheme of things, but to a lesser or greater degree yes to that.

There are other aspects of life that I'm far more concerned about in terms of my daughter's future, but I'd agree that just because one sees greater issues doesn't mean smaller ones shouldn't be dealt with of course.

The idea that sexual assaults go down around LDCs is a surprising aspect as it's usually the opposite claim that's brought out to show how damaging LDCs are.

I've been sexually assaulted by men in the past, but I don't feel I can attribute any blame in LDCs for that.

All that aside, where we differ in opinion mostly ( perhaps ) is on the demand / supply argument and why LDCs exist. I don't believe it's all purely down to and solvable by men's sense of entitlement and it's eradication there of.

I'm of the opinion that there are women who take their clothes off, freely like Titty, or objectify themselves in some other way and the men who indulge in it for gratification.

I'm quite uncomfortable with the idea that both parties be punished. Or any parties.

I'd be far more in favour of improving the working conditions.

Oh, and I'd rather concentrate on a better environment for ALL women in society - not just the few lap dancers.

No - that is absolutely the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm looking at the bigger picture - I'm not saying individual men come out of clubs and assault women outside (although they may well do!).

I'm saying that the whole social acceptability of having clubs where women can be paid to stand around half naked, dance suggestively for a tenner etc feeds into the whole sexual objectification of women in wider society - that it is ok for men to grab a woman's arse in a nightclub, to rape a woman because you bought her drinks and dinner etc etc - after all, that's what women are for, they all love it don't they?

Sabrina you are saying that the men who go to LDCs cannot control their emotions and will grab women when they come out of the clubs, any sexual crime is classified as violence and there is research out there. Just because it has been done by a person who is pro clubs does not invalidate it as it is easily checkable. I think you would find there is more of a correlation to "normal night clubs" than LDCs.

As for my criticising Object finances one person suggested that the clubs are paying reporters and Object wasn't making people money. I pointed out that the projects Object got funding for have never got past the concept stage which begs the question where did the £000s' of grant money go? Does Anna the CEO speak for free on TV and forums? I don't know and would be interested if anyone does know. Point being is there is a lot of money given to object someone must have made something out of it as the projects never materialised (as far as I can find).

I accept the clubs have lots of money which is why I think the moment it gets to European courts a club will win the first case and every council will drop nil policies rather rather than face massive court bills. The downside the dancers still don't get better protection. The key should be how do we make a better, safer environment for the dancers not how do we make things worse.

There is no equality in those societies, not even an illusion of equality, namechangeguy. Women are seen as the property of men - firstly her father then her husband - therefore of course they can be abused.

I am not saying that there is no link between LDC's (or rather the culture that allows them) and low level sexual assault. I have not read it, although it is usually easier to prove correlation rather than causation.

One thing that confuses me though about the linkage. Aren't there societies where there are no LDC's, such as India and the Middle East, where harassment of women is also unacceptably high? Certainly in the ME there are very few women who dress with a lot of flesh on show.

Daddancer- how many people have to tell you that it's not about whether one dancer posts that she's happy. Its about the sexual objectification of women.

Could one of you pro- lap dance posters please answer somerset's question? She's posted the minor sexual assaults thread up here twice now - did anyone actually look at it? The huge majority of women have suffered some manner of sexual assaults - with many never telling a soul about it.

Think about what causes mens' mindsets to think it's ok to sexually assault a woman- to grab her tits or arse in a nightclub, to force themselves onto her when she doesn't want it.

It is the mindset that is caused by the objectification of women- that women are just 'things' to be bought- just pretty background in a club, just something to buy a sexual dance from. LDCs along with the rest of the sex industry all feed into that.

Can you not see the link

Sabrina, why are you surprised that someone chooses to criticise one side of this discussion and not the other? Almost everybody here has an entrenched position whereby they wish to heap all the blame onto one party and totally exonerate the other.

Life isn't like that. This is a complex situation. The sooner people take off their political blinkers on all sides and see that there is blame across the board the better. Otherwise, proper discussion becomes impossible.

So you'd criticise the finances of object and not the men who own these clubs and profit from the exploitation of women?

Sounds like you're more the daily mail readership tbh.

Running the line that they have been verbally and physically harassed comes from a template letter that Object posted on their closed yahoo user group Article Here and wasn't given to the public for general use. The women who claim sexual harassment don't ever seem to report it to the police from what I have read but if people want to check just ask the police.

As to Object and money, interesting that they have had to move offices from the Womens Resource Centre to a PO Box in Lambeth. Also now that they haven't received grants for a while a lot of the old directors have left. It is a wonder where all the grant money went, the £25,000 for women exiting prostitution, they bought a website and designed a logo and thats all I could find. While they were being paid a lot of people stayed around all of a sudden a lot of people left can't be sure if it was a case of we have run out of money so I leaving a) so you don't have to pay me to save money or b) as you can't pay me.

Before we sit back and listen to what, DadDancer?

Again, I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself. My issue is not with the dancers themselves who may or may not choose to do it (and I'm not even talking about trafficking - I hadn't even had cause to use that word until after TD's post when I suddenly had to keep reminding people that I had never claimed women even were trafficked - I'm talking about women who perhaps 'choose' to enter the sex industry (not just lapdancing) for all sorts of reasons that many of the rest of us would hope never to have to face).

My issue is with the impact that places such as lap dancing clubs have on women as a whole. You know, the bigger picture that so many seem to have difficulty getting their heads around. Not sure how many more times I'm going to have to make this point.

These claims of the decline of society and the sexualisation of women all sound a bit like a Daily Mail style scaremongering campaign to me.

Right. You'd know, of course. Being a woman who is subjected to the impact of a culture which feeds into objectification. Oh, wait... Did you read the thread I linked to twice now? You still want to deny the effects of objectificaiton on every day women after reading all if it?

Why don't you sit back and listen?

Are you honestly saying that men and women are exactly equal in this world, that there are the same numbers of women in the boardroom, as CEOs, running companies, making up seats in Parliament, routinely being paid the same, not being the default option to stay home and raise kids and clean the house, and have their careers held back?

I know it's futile to keep arguing - I know you simply will never get it.

Out of interest, DadDancer - are you white?

Do you have a direct link? Thanks.

Great posts tittydancer and nice to get another insight from a dancer. I do wonder how many dancer testimonials would be required before people on here would even begin to step back and listen. I posted a link a couple of days ago with a dancer interview which had positives and negatives, but it was sadly ignored.

Couple of questions, i was wondering how you felt about dancing for other women and couples? is that something you would normally do? and if you do who do you prefer?

LineRunner it was highlighted on the stripping the illusion blog. Regarding OBJECTtionable behavior.

DadDancer, do you think that women are sexually objectified in our culture (porn, grid girls, adverts with a disembodied pair of breasts or legs etc) but that none of this affects women in general? Or is it only lap dancing that you feel isn't part of a general effect ?

I think that the notion that somehow a bloke who sees some porn or girly images/adverts, lap dancers etc are going to alter they way they treat women, is far fetched and being overplayed on this thread. Yes a few blokes may be affected by it, but i believe the vast majority will be able to separate fantasy from reality. I think that for the men who are sexist it's more a power thing like bullying and has little do to with the images they have seen through life. These claims of the decline of society and the sexualisation of women all sound a bit like a Daily Mail style scaremongering campaign to me.

In the past Object have told their members to make up claims that they have been harassed outside LDC's, so can't be trusted.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. Could you point me to the evidence so that I can look at it too, thanks.

the only stats you need to worry about are the ones off police.uk website. I tried it for the two lap dancing clubs in my town and the stats are really low, comparable to a typical residential street of about 2-3 a month. Interestingly outside the nightclubs in the other parts of town this was around 20 to 25 a month. It doesn't surprise me as LDC's are calm places where binge drinking is frowned upon, unlike nightclubs.
In the past Object have told their members to make up claims that they have been harassed outside LDC's, so can't be trusted.

With regards to the 'most men have been to a lap dancing club' statement i would say this to be pretty true, as most men will no doubt go on a stag do at some point, and an LDC is pretty standard for this. Loads of men i know go for xmas parties and birthdays too. I would certainly say more have been than not.