Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

theOriginL

with all due respect if you'd read the entire thread you'd know that the question of ones daughter ( and I'd just add it's not just men over the divide ) has been asked, answered and debated already.

Have been a lurker for a while, but this thread has caught my attention as I happen to know a woman who worked within the sex "entertainment" industry.

We went to school together, lost touch then I met her again briefly at sixth form college, before again losing touch. We recently "met up" again on FB and oddly she now lives near me, despite the fact I moved away from my place of birth several years ago. I knew she had done some modelling while at college but didn't realise this quickly graduated to 'glamour' modelling and then to working as a stripper.

She's quite open (with me at least, dont suppose she advertises it widely!) that she worked in LDVs and so I asked her about some of the assertions made on this thread and how she and the other women she worked with felt about what they did and the men they came into contact with.

These were her main points:

1. Viewed in hindsight, she believes ending up as a stripper was a progression from the original modelling - while at the time she saw it as losing her inhibitions and 'working her way up', financially especially, she now feels it was like a quicksand she got further into as she lost her sense of self worth
2. Any ideas she once might have had about "empowerment" soon wore off - ask her how she feels about it now (and did for the vast majority of the time she was doing it) and words like cynical, hardened, used and dirtied come up a lot
3. She, and every other woman she worked with at LDVs, utterly despised the male clients, not least because they feared at some level what it said about maleness and about relationships between the genders.
4. She doesn't like herself much, finds maintaining any kind of relationship with a decent man very difficult and, in her own words, has "anger issues" that she is struggling to deal with

I've read the whole of this thread, and laboured through all the tortured arguments and stats this, stats that, not to mention the self serving nonsense from men who use these clubs. And then I've spoken to a real woman who has been there, done it, taken off the t-shirt (and the rest) and I know where I stand.

My friend said this: "ask the men on that thread sticking up for lap dancing if they would be happy to see their daughter do it. They won't admit it, but what they'll be thinking is 'you must be fucking joking, she's a nice girl' ie not a whore like the dancers."

Clearly, GetAllThings, my point was specifically about Jo resorting to insults. Not coming onto the forum and simply 'disagreeing' and 'confronting'.

True KRITIQ. But likewise I'd add that others shouldn't be get hot and bothered when their ideas are challenged.

The idea that the sex industry should be banned isn't an idea universally accepted by all feminists. It's obviously divisive. Yet anyone arguing against banning seems to be seen as anti-feminist.

< goes off to The Litter Box to confront the bird murder accessories >

Yes Get All, but if folks come into this specific room, seeking to rubbish feminists and their views, they shouldn't come over all hot and bothered if they aren't greeted with cupcakes and mugs of cocoa.

Try going into the Litterbox and saying you think moggie owners are accessories to bird murder and see what happens.

You come onto a feminist forum, where people examine the world through a feminist lens and look at issues from a feminist angle, and insult those people?

We aren't on a feminist forum. We are on a parenting forum that has a section to discuss feminism. It's not for feminists, it's for discussions about feminism and issues surrounding it.

It's a common mistake people make on here when they think it's 'their' forum.

The first attempt looks like Oxford, the court has already allowed the club to operate until the case can be settled in Europe. Which will be a year or so from what I have read. The clubs has no history of harassment or crimes and the police offered no complaints which is why it has a license. Nil policy is suppose to shut existing clubs down but...

Hackney's Nil Policy is such that the existing clubs continue and I believe that is the same in Portsmouth. Issues will occur if the clubs can't be sold or the council try to close one without very valid grounds. If Oxford lose then the councils will probably not want to go down that route and be scared of doing anything that could see the clubs taking them to court.

Does anyone know, has any council actually attempted to close any SEVs under 'nil cap' licensing powers; or are those councils which are introducing a 'nil cap' actually introducing a future nil cap and not a retrospective one?

I agree with you Sausage that if councils can be over-ruled on planning and licensing decisions (or fear that they will be) by 'higher powers' then this is something significant.

And so it rumbles on....

Simple question: Is "objectification" per se bad or is it just bad when it overwhelms other value judgments of a person?

Personally, I think that everyone objectifies sexual partners (or generally anyone of the opposite sex whom they fancy but don't really know). And most youthful relationships are based, at least, on an element of "fancying" which is objectification by another name. I believe that decent human beings are able to value members of the other sex as both fully functioning human beings and sexual objects. And I believe that this binary of sex object/real person is a completely artificial trope which some people assume to be true.

Line think this shows what will happen if/when a club takes a council into European court. It will end any threat the council has over the club and set a precedent that will freeze councils for years from doing anything to help protect dancers.

Just an update on Wiggle in Portsmouth, which was refused Planning Permission by the local council.

Wiggle appealed to the government inspector in Bristol and the appeal has been allowed.

I have to say I am bit surprised that the government is still over-turning local planning decisions.

Sabrina you really think you can comment about my ex and what I want? Okay well guess as your arguments have no factual support and are only your beliefs it helps to decide what is in my head.

We have no causal evidence that LDCs do harm to women. Here's an interesting fact for you 2 clubs half a mile apart one in the same area as night clubs and the other away from them, guess which one is in an area where low level harassment takes place and which isn't... which one has violence nearby and which one doesn't? If people really wanted to deal with harassment, violence and sexual crimes the night clubs should be tackled. One near me has the label the meat locker, don't see people rushing to close it down even though 14 and 15 year olds talk about it.

You don't have to be a radical feminist to hate LDCs, Jo. Nobody has argued that all women are helpless - that is a straw man argument.

somerset strippers have nothing in common with chickens. They don't have feathers, and they don't lay eggs.

My problem is with the view that women are nothing more than the helpless victims of male evil. That women are either clever rad feminists or unwitting facilitators of male evil.

You want other women to take the brunt of the bad behaviour of your controlling ex, Sausage? Well done there.

LDCs may not have been the cause of his abusive behaviour, but they sure as hell condoned his ideas that women are for domestic or sexual services to men.

Somerset I understand that I am the one person that you don't want on here. A woman that understands that objectification in and of itself is not necessarily wrong. If it leads to a sexual crime then it is wrong, if it is just in someone's head and they don't live their life around it then is it harmful? And having lived with an "emotionally controlling man" I believe he would never have set foot in a LDC as he would have had no real control which would have driven him nuts. Him seeing me as a babymaker who belonged in the kitchen was not because of LDCs.

Also I do my research, thats why I can call Object, Eaves and Fawcett liars. Knowing they know how useless the research they have is and yet they still trot it out hoping the person they are telling hasn't heard how flawed the research is.

As for being a feminist, interestingly I see myself as one. I want women to be free to choose their own lives not have some moral guardian controlling them. So maybe I should stay and challenge people who don't care about 10,000 women. Who don't care how many women who are funding their education can't finish it (the taliban will be cheering that one).

As I said clubs in the UK will challenge any action to close them by councils in a european court of law. The way the law is with grandfather rights and protections around business that have been trading having a protection from closure if no laws are broken I just can't see the councils being able to close an existing venue. Once 1 council losses no council will risk the legal bill and thats it for any council control until either the law changes again or the UK leaves the EU.

"Some burk..."

What exactly is your problem JoTheHot?

Is the idea of women taking issue with the part LCDs play in terms of the objectification of women so abhorrent to you? Is women speaking up for all women so awful, that you have to stoop to insults?

Is the idea that threatening to you? Do you go into the pet forum and tell the chicken-keepers they're all 'burks' as well?

You come onto a feminist forum, where people examine the world through a feminist lens and look at issues from a feminist angle, and insult those people?

I really admire your tenacity. Good on you for coming back time and again, posting, lurking, what-have-you - in the face of us idiots and our ludicrous opinions. One might think you'd have better things to do with your time, but no, here you are, reminding us of our inherent 'burk-ness'. So good of you. Here's your medal:

And sausage - maybe best to stop saying you're leaving at the end of every post. There's no need to keep saying it. We know you have no intention of leaving. You'll start to lose credibilty, if you're not careful.

"...so called feminists using the tiresome objectification argument"

Another one apparently bored, and yet just can't stay away, either... I asked you question a few posts back now, DadDancer, but I'm guessing you missed it. Are you white?

I think Jo, what you're failing to understand that LDCs are part of a wider societal, the sexualisation and commodification of women.

The reason why feminists don't like to blame the women involved IMO is because they are just operating as best they can in the society they were given. The men creating the demand are the ones that can look at their actions and make a real change.

Saying that I think lap dancing clubs are damaging to all women is an opinion - it is not speaking for all women. They are two different things.

And call me a prude if that makes you happy - it's a common enough insult to feminists who speak out against the sex industry. Why women speaking out against punters paying women for sexual services has any bearing on her attitude on towards other sexual relationships, I'll never know.

I happen to think that all punters abuse women.

Ohhh, so not wanting women to be treated as pieces of meat is prudish is it?

You'll be calling frigid/lesbians/in need of a shag next.

What reasons are behind the 30% stat, Daddancer? Perhaps it's men like you? Men who go to the clubs to pay them to wiggle their tits in their faces. Or the men who try to barter down the prices, try to touch them? Or the men who abuse them, tell them their tits aren't big enough etc? You say you don't insult and abuse these women - but I wonder - would any punter actually own up to abusive behaviour? MN forums are full of punters who argue that they respect the dancers - but some of you are being abusive - because the dancers themselves say so.

You argue for better conditions - but that is in the club owners hands now isn't it? The club owners could enforce their so-called rules and introduce more. But they don't. All they want is paying punters through the door. Rather than saying Object should improve conditions - why not say the club owners should?

The clubs won't limit the number of dancers in a club - because they want to maximise the choice of girls available to the punters. Make it like a sweetie shop for them - a type of woman to satisfy any man's taste, including yours. And you can buy her to wiggle for you. Nice.

I worked in HR. My last company had around an 80% job satisfaction in surveys - consistently. And absolutely nobody complained that they had lost all faith in men as a result of working there.

Running...
And yes, lap dancing clubs create a problem for women her and now - all women not just the dancers.
Speaking for all women again are we? No I think you are speaking for yourself, and a small minority of persons who object to LDC's. If people think they are such a problem as you assume then why are there so few objections to them when they re-apply for their SEV's?
The objections I have read for my local clubs were typically nimby type reasons from prudish residents and religious moralists who use things like the clubs proximity to a place of worship. Only a handful were from so called feminists using the tiresome objectification argument.

beat me to it FastLoris was going to say a similar thing regarding the 30% stat. It would be interesting to hear what the reasons were behind this too.
We do a job satisfaction survey every year where i work (public sector) and believe me the figures are far worse than the Leeds study. So 74% of dancers rated their job between 7 and 10 out of 10 and zero % rated their job between 0 and 2. I'd say that's pretty decent job satisfaction. Also 72.5% say that it combines fun and work. How many people can say that about their jobs?

The recommendations to the study seem very sensible too:

-Clearly displayed council rules in a number
of places in the club:
toilets, changing rooms etc
-Offer a receipt for fines and fees ? make
sure fines and fees go through the books
-Offer a receipt for dances where
commission is taken
-Monthly meetings to discuss rules,
changes, get dancers? input
-Tighter regulation on the location and type
of private booths to achieve a balance
between privacy and security
-Insurance information for the dancers
-Limiting the number of dancers per
capacity of clubs

Maybe organisations like Object should work together with the dancers to achieve these things rather than trying to make them redundant.

Yes, I wonder if 30% of, say, doctors, or dentists cite 'losing all faith in men' as a negative aspect of their job.

You could use that as your benchmark.

Running -

And I'd argue that over 30% of current dancers saying they have lost faith in all men as a result of their job is pretty harmful.

OTOH it would only be semi-facetious to observe that probably at least 30% of women generally have lost faith in all men (possibly more), so the statistic needs to be taken against that benchmark.