Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

KarlosKKrinkelbeim
Thats still not a constructive argument 'mate' Unless you are going to back up your comments up with some evidence then there really isn't anything to go on. Keep trying

yy LRD.

As an aside I am hugely impressed by that striptease artist quoted above! First a prestigious university, then law, media, and finance. Probably didn't have time to work her way up all those ladders though. Luckily she'll have quite a pick of choices to fall back on once she gets left behind because shes 30 ready to move on.

I find the way that stripping is now justified by looking at students (so privileged! So naice and pretty and clever! They must know what they are doing!) is really sick.

There is a whole complex of factors pushing at female students. It's horrible. Clubs that give a discount if you take a 'sexy' photo. Pubs that promote student nights as times to strip off and get 'sexy' or, if you're male, to pick up a girl or two. Fancy dress nights with prizes for the best dressed (=most naked) girl. Student stand-up taking after the Frankie Boyle model and thinking rape is hilarious.

I know there are good things coming out of university women's offices, but I think that female students are held up as 'proof' that educated women 'choose' this lifestyle, therefore it can't be bad.

This is wrong on two levels.

One: do we know how these women feel when they are older, and less desperate for money? Yes, we do. They get the hell out of that 'job'.

Two: why is it ok for more educated/privileged women to be made into an example that pisses over the poorer, less privileged women who make up the backbone of the sex industry? Isn't there something hugely uncomfortable at taking a 19-year-old, who works as a stripper for six months while relying on the (huge) support of a university, probably a family, the goodwill of the law enforcement, etc. etc., and making her representative of what this industry is?

What about the other women who're not so eloquent about how empowered they feel, but who're stripping or having sex for money because that's what there is, or their mum did it, or their pimp beats them up when they don't, or whatever it happens to be? Isn't it appalling that they're also suffering from this message that it's 'glamorous' and fine?

i know because plenty of them say as much. Plus it stands to reason, doesn't it? However desperate you are to convince yourself otherwise.

£60-80 a night for a (no doubt exhausting) eight-hour shift is £7.50 to £10 an hour. Not a fantastic rate of pay by any means.

Cheers Frans180

Just to clarify:

'In the research study by Leeds, most women worked between two and four eight-hour shifts a week, and the average earni ngs were £232. However, there was huge variation between clubs, reflecting the diversity of work available. While Barnes generally makes £60-£80 a night to help fund her degree dancing privately for individual clients in her underwear, Nilsson can often earn up to £200 a night for her MSc by putting on collective shows for large audiences in a strip club that offers something much closer to burlesque entertainment.'

I am not convinced that 232 quid for a week's work is brilliant. Isn't it just over 1k per month?!

So I think you missed the crucial bit there!

KarlosKKrinkelbeim
How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.

er how do you know that? and no need for the insults 'mate'.
If you have a constructive argument to make then please put one forward

"Love the 2nd newest comment from the top by a dancer named as 'c243dvx'
Absolutely spot on, i recommend you read it. "

here it is:

*Hello commenters,

There seem to be quite a few false perceptions about what working in one of these clubs is actually like, and I would like to offer an opportunity for anyone who has questions to ask them here.

I graduated from a prestigious university with a good degree some years ago, and CHOSE to work as a striptease artist thereafter. I should probably point out that I have never lap-danced as I would not personally feel comfortable with that, but performing on a stage and podium is something I have done for many years. I enjoy my job and have never felt degraded, which cannot be said of the many other industries I have worked in (law, media, finance to name a few). The woman who runs the club I work at is fair and supportive, and should be congratulated for creating such a nurturing working environment. I do understand, however, that many clubs are not run in such a commendable way, and I believe we should work to change the way they are operated.

There are many different types of men and women who come to see me and other performers at work. Some are appreciative of the art form, others are not. Some women perform with little understanding of the subtleties of what they are doing, whilst others are commended for their artistic merit. There are ardent feminists working within the industry and fighting for our right to continue performing just as there are vociferous feminist groups who labour to have us closed down. We can no longer talk of just one feminism. There is no generic customer. There is no generic stripper.

As a performance that incorporates sexuality, it is inevitably controversial and divides opinion massively, but my experience of it has been overwhelmingly positive. It has allowed me a forum to explore that sexuality, to claim it as my own, to embrace being a woman whose sexuality is important to her. As such it has been a very rewarding job both intellectually and psychologically.

My main reason for writing here is that I feel striptease and sexuality need to be demystified. I believe that as a society we need to talk more about what these things mean to us and to learn from each other, rather than simply pitting opposing opinions against one another and letting the louder voice win. On that note, if anyone has any questions about working as a stripper that they feel would help their understanding, then please let me know.*

Actually, the evidence does not exist that lap dancers make more in one night than shelf stackers. They have to pay to dance on the stage. Each club has more dancers than they need so many of hte women are dancing for negative money on any given night.

According to this guardian article, average earnings are £232 a night. Pretty sure shelf stackers don't get paid this for a nights work.

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/feb/15/lap-dancing-students-funding-studies

Love the 2nd newest comment from the top by a dancer named as 'c243dvx'
Absolutely spot on, i recommend you read it.

"Yeah lap dancers primary objective is to sell dances but it doesn't mean you cant have fun or get a bit of rapport going. "
How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.

A 2003 report by Lilith claimed rape in Camden rose by 50% after the introduction of lap dancing clubs. But it appears the researchers set out with an agenda and tweaked the facts and biased things to get the results they wanted.

A closer unbiased look comes to the conculsion of: There is no statistical evidence for a specific crime problem around lap-dancing clubs in Camden

melonfarmers.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/stripping-out-the-bollox-so-much-for-the-lilith-report-that-claimed-camden-strip-clubs-attract-crime/

www.scribd.com/doc/47185652/Green-Paper-Camden-Lilith-rape-stats

StewieGriffinsMom
^I always find it troubling when men suggest that women dancing naked for their sexual entertainment is just like background noise. It's there if you want but that you don't need to.

Such an incredibly dismissive way to refer to a person. Even without everthing Posie said.^

That's just over analysis of what i said which was simply that you can go to lap dancing clubs just for drinks. Please don't put word into my mouth and i must correct you the dancers aren't background noise they are the stars of the show.

PosieParker
I keep thinking about the 'for' arguments for lap dancing and cannot for the life of me find one I agree with

well obviously, lap dancing clubs aren't your cup of tea so you aren't going to see any positives and even if you did i doubt you'd admit to them

Lap dancers are consenting adults. It's their bodies so their choice right? Actually no. One choice is a silly word and two it has far reaching consequence for the whole of society, not in the least sexual crime rises in the proximity and that the guys that oggle women in the club are more likely to oggle all women, the objectification spreads.

so what you are implying is that i am more susceptible to committing crimes because i go to lap dancing clubs? i am sorry but you just can't go around making allegations like that. The crime stats are far lower in the vicinity of lap dancing clubs when compared to other night time entertainment venues and that is a fact.

How predictable for you to then quote the Lilith report. You obviously haven't done your home work.
1st rule when arguing against lap dancing clubs is don't mention the Lilith report.

Also choice is silly word? what kind of an argument is that?
i tell you what a silly word is and that's 'objectification. As it's based on an a generalisation and it assumes the worst of people, the lowest common denominator. How do you know that people who go to lap dancing clubs objectify the dancers? where's your evidence that it effects the wider society?

Soon sex work can be advertised at your local job centre and if you don't work you may lose your benefits,
that's no true either.

Fawcett society and Lilith project.

Perhaps you're missing the point about choice, Frans. Soon sex work can be advertised at your local job centre and if you don't work you may lose your benefits, do you still think it's a choice?

Is there any evidence sexual crimes rise in the proximity of strip clubs?

But it is still choice even if it's not a choice you would dream of. Isn't feminism supposed to be about choice? Would it be better if we lived in Victorian era Britain? (they would never have allowed strip clubs but look at how they treated women).

If society gives women choice then it's inevitable some women will make choices other women don't like. It seems hypocritical to want freedom for women then pick and choose which freedoms.

Frans. Like I said not one I agree with.

-Lap dancers are consenting adults. It's their bodies so their choice right? Actually no. One choice is a silly word and two it has far reaching consequence for the whole of society, not in the least sexual crime rises in the proximity and that the guys that oggle women in the club are more likely to oggle all women, the objectification spreads.

-Lap dancers can make in one night what a shelf stacker would take a month to make

That is part of 'choice' that makes it a non choice.

-If you don't like lap clubs noone if forcing you to go visit one.

No, but the hideousness spreads and has an impact on a wider society, it becomes normal.

-Lap dancers are human like anyone else, this is just their job.

Actually they become less than human they are objectified.

I keep thinking about the 'for' arguments for lap dancing and cannot for the life of me find one I agree with

How about:

-Lap dancers are consenting adults. It's their bodies so their choice right?

-Lap dancers can make in one night what a shelf stacker would take a month to make

-If you don't like lap clubs noone if forcing you to go visit one.

-Lap dancers are human like anyone else, this is just their job.

I don't agree with a word of the quotes from the article above but the Guardian's 'Comment is Free' area of their website is for people who are not Guardian writers to write opinion pieces putting forward their point of view. It is not subject to Guardian editorial standpoint.

I thought everybody knew that? I guess they haven't made it clear enough on that part of their site...

I keep thinking about the 'for' arguments for lap dancing and cannot for the life of me find one I agree with, I also cannot stomach the posters who say it's not so bad or defend the whole thing.

Daddancer the old service industry exchange annoys the hell out of me and is such a cop out. The lap dancer is about selling dances, ffs, she's about selling the idea of sex, commodity, her body. She's not waltzing is she? A bar worker, haridresser etc provide a service (a tangible service) and part of that is being pleasant, it is not the same.

...and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day.

From my experience this is not true at all. I have never been to a club where you have to pay to chat. You only pay if you are invited for a dance, which is effectively paying to watch a live performance. There is no obligation for this either. You can go to the club just for quiet drinks and nothing more. For people who have grown out of nightclubs like myself it's a good safe alternative for some late night drinks and no more expensive than a lot of the bars.

I mean, seriously - what kind of social situation exists in the real world where people are only 'nice' to other people because they're paid to be so?

I'd say pretty much the whole service industry, from entertainers, to hairdressers, to waiters, bar workers etc. But with all of these if you make the effort and be nice to people then over time you can make genuine friends. Yeah lap dancers primary objective is to sell dances but it doesn't mean you cant have fun or get a bit of rapport going.