Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away

Did you know that Playboy magazine is full of great articles about cars?

Frans1980 and Sausageeggbacon thanks for your support. i only visit lap dancing clubs on the odd occasions, like a works night out or birthday parties. I was quite skeptical about them until i went on a mates stag do. The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away but the thing i really didn't expect was how down to earth everyone was who worked there.

The comments from PosieParker and Feminist Dragon are unreasonable and aggressive. There is certainly no need for them to be rude and abusive and they are just shooting themselves in the foot by doing so.
I appreciate that a lot of people don't like lap dancing clubs and i have no problem with them saying that but to make up false allegations of crime, calling people idiots, accusing persons of abusing young girls, etc now that i do have a problem with. It's quite ironic that they accuse me of abuse when they have both demonstrated abusive behavior first hand on this forum.

I think the 'dreadfully' written blog Posie mentioned but couldn't think of the name is the 'stripping the illusion blog' which i am a member of. There is a very nice piece on there titled 'Cognitive Dissonance in Prohibitionist Campaigning' which i think applies quite nicely to a fair few of the comments on here

Noone has answered my point that just because it is better paid than stacking shelves, that does not make it OK - it makes it worse. People who convince old people to part with lots of money in order to do relatively samll building repair jobs are not actually breaking the law and are certainly earning more than people who stack shelves. so is this activity OK? Surely it's the choice of the person offering the service and the pensioner who wants to go ahead with the work to decide for themselves if this is OK. I mean it might have a knock on effect of lots of people deciding it's OK to see all old people as vulnerable and fair game to be persuaded to part with cash but what can you do about that, it's their choice.

Sausageeggbacon - I think the fairly accepted view, when talking to actual sex workers, is that the only true opinion is that of people who have left the industry. Not those still in it. Who have a vested interest in portraying it in a more favourable light. This is a pretty widely known and accepted view.

I mean, come on - you're an intelligent person. You don't need me to tell you that for every happy hooker out there, there are a depressingly outnumbered swathe who are not happy and not making choices and not consenting, who don't have 'criminal justice' degrees in their back pockets, paying off mortgages left, right and centre. Yes, if Disney did strip clubs, this would be their version. But it's not the real world version, right?

DadDancer - wow, that hurt, didn't it? Isn't nice to hear that people might despise you.

Ask yourself this. Why beautiful young women who are way out of your league don't flock around you when you're in the supermarket doing your shopping, or queuing at an ATM to get cash out. I mean, do they? They don't, right? But you're that much of an oaf that you think the ones who do in a strip club actual like you and want to be within a bargepole's length of you. I'm cringing for you, I honestly am.

Try this about Drummond here

Well Drummond admitted he made up the claims in Newquay he had no figures Posie. As to Object claims I don't see any figures and where the research came from.

onetwo

Actually fuck it, what's the point? You obviously are not going to be convinced even though it's fucking obvious that if you spend the evening reducing women to tits and arse you are going to think differently of women on the whole.

It is no coincidence that sex crime increases in the areas where clubs spring up and that we've seen

Again I ask where is the evidence for that? The Lilith report has been exposed as utter tripe (see my links above)

Sausage, i assume you are another idiot reader of that dreadfully written blog, the name of which I have forgotten.

But just because you know one dancer, who can't be a great lawyer if she tops up with sex work, it doesn't make it a valuable choice for all does it. I have no doubt that you will find deluded happy lap dancers in many clubs up and down the country, but they do play their part in the objectification of women. It is no coincidence that sex crime increases in the areas where clubs spring up and that we've seen, along with the rise of lap dancing clubs, a huge rise in the market for online porn, lads mags and sexist advertising not to mention STis.

It is not a coincidence that in these, as apologists, empowering times for women that the pay gap and glass ceiling still exist. I'm sure you're not stupid enough to think these things have nothing to do with each other.

We're not feMEnists, by the way. FeMNists, if you like.

HTH.

I saw it, DD. Not an answer. And no apology for your mistake, either, I notice. It's not 'fine' to misrepresent what happens with strippers.

I'm saying that someone who goes to strip clubs to abuse young women is, IME, despicable.

I'm terribly sorry if you find that insulting.

But it is my opinion.

sausage - bollocks. Of course you'll be able to find the odd happy hooker to beef up the stereotype. I have already said (but did you bother to read it?) that this is part of the problem: the few like your mate, who are very privileged already, are used to make others who have no choices are are not happy feel as if they should be. Well done, really nice.

Why you assume no-one except you talks to women in this industry, I don't know. I do. I've spoken both with students who've got into it, and with women who're ground down by it years on. It is not a good picture.

It is interesting watching the feMEnists here not willing to accept a view that is anything other than dancers are abused victims, that is denying dancers agency and therefore Objectifying them more than any man could... right on sisters.

I have met and become a friend of a dancer in her late 20's, she has a degree in Criminal Justice but has found that dancing allows her to explore her creative side and she now owns 3 Properties she lets. She still has a mortgage on one of them but expects to pay it off in another year or so. She seems able, intelligent and happy.

A year ago I would have been sitting here ranting at Dad, meeting a neighbour who was home during the day has changed my view. Perhaps rather than judging dancers we should be talking to them.

Or is your definition of "abuse" so wide it includes a man looking at a woman?

don't go to stripclubs to abuse young women.

This post is insulting and accusing. If you know of any customers that abuse strippers in strip clubs I assume you are able to provide evidence?

I haven't been to a stripclub and I never intend to go to one. But saying that I'm not going to campaign to ban them all. If others want to go then that's up to them not me.

yeah i did respond , did you not see the figures?

If you find it offensive when people despise you - don't go to stripclubs to abuse young women. It is simple.

oh wow so now your accusing me of abusing young women. Again more insults without any foundation. And ask yourself why you have descended to using insults? Is It because you can't put any valid points together to counter my arguments?

and if being a w*ker involves speaking out for peoples freedom of choice and sexual diversity, standing up against authoritarian lefties trying to impose their moral views and dictate how people live their lives, then fine call me a w*ker.

Ah, I see. Much outrage, but no response to my actual point about your incorrect argument.

If you find it offensive when people despise you - don't go to stripclubs to abuse young women. It is simple.

Ah I see Frans and Dad, I can't imagine either are parents, are trying to justify their own activities. This is how people manage to be patrons and kids themselves that they like women.

It's quite funny really, almost like that Happy Hooker myth, I say almost I mean just.

In my city we have five lap dancing bars, one of which was definitely found offering more than is legally available and one close by had a fourteen yr old lap dancing for months before she was discovered. This tells me the owners couldn't really give a shot about the women who work there.

It makes perfect sense that when men go to a lap dancing club and objectify women, unless you all sit talking about her personality and political views, it stands to reason that some of those men will continue to see women as tits and arse when they leave.

And you have no idea who you're watching when you go to these clubs, whether she's trafficked, a victim of abuse, a drug addict etc.

It's an acceptable comment because it's true. They think you're a wanker (which you are, literally).

So who appointed you the spokesperson for all strippers?

LRDtheFeministDragon are you the forum judge and jury? If i was rude to Karlos then too bad as he was very rude to me in his first comment. Let me remind you of what he said:

'How sad is this. They despise you, mate. And rightly so.'

So you think that is an acceptable comment do you? and if not then why not pull him up on it like you have just done with me?

ok so i could have linked direct to the Leeds university document but that's beside the point. I simply was demonstrating that there is evidence on what lap dancers typically earn and if i got the figure wrong then fine. People are free to interpret the figures for themselves. Also if it is £232 a week then that is still based on part time hours, for between 2 to 4 days work. If you take 3 as an average then it's about £80 a night, so £400 a week if it was full time. So a pro rata of about £20k. Still a lot more than you'd get for stacking shelves.

Well, all I can say is: lucky lucky women. Who cares that they are confining their expression of their own sexuality to becoming a conduit for the most lazy of male fantasies - that of a compliant and sexually available woman who has no criteria other than how much money the guy has? Who cares indeed that this has nothing to do with female sexuality at all? After all, you make less money stacking shelves, so they must be empowered, eh?

The fact that we have a situation where it is possible to earn more money by stripping or lap dancing than stacking a shelf is appalling. Rather than an argument FOR stripping it should be seen as an argument against it. Being able to earn more money by servicing a small part of the male population if you happen to be young and have a sexy body as opposed to by working at a regular job which services the whole community and which can be carried out by anyone of any age/ gender/ degree of attractiveness shows where the power balance in our society lies - and it's certainly not with the ordinary (predominantly female) shopper in Tescos.

With all due respect, dd, it is very rude to ask another poster for evidence while failing to admit the flaws pointed out in the evidence (hardly evidence, it was a newspaper article!) you linked to!

Come on: admit you misunderstood/misread and we can call it quits. Calling on someone else for 'evidence' in this situation is just silly.