Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

I'm with the Icelandic model on this. Have all the lap dancing you want but you are not to charge for it. Excellent. I wonder how many women would choose to to do it to strangers for free.

Men who frequent such establishments are sad losers, justify it to yourselves however you like, but we know what you are.

" A lap dance is on the table and the man expressing his sexuality" ??!!

If that means what I think it does, then I am horrified that either of them could enjoy that situation - the man behind a curtain looking through a gap, I could imagine !!! And he's not there " to talk to a woman" is he ?!
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DadDancer -

ok so i could have linked direct to the Leeds university document but that's beside the point. I simply was demonstrating that there is evidence on what lap dancers typically earn and if i got the figure wrong then fine. People are free to interpret the figures for themselves. Also if it is £232 a week then that is still based on part time hours, for between 2 to 4 days work.

Actually while the Guardian article wasn't clear, it would appear you were actually right in the first place. This article mentions the same research and makes clear that it's £230 per shift, not per week:

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/the-human-cost-of-uks-300m-addiction-to-lapdancing-7637488.html

I don't have a particular position re what that does or doesn't mean for the acceptability of lapdancing. Just thought I'd post it to clarify the information.

None of the prostitution debate is really relevant to lap dancing as the UK regulations are designed to stop any touching taking place. From what I have been told the club owners are terrified of losing their income so the girls are warned they will be fired if they touch a customer. Dances are supervised either by bouncers or CCTV. The term lap dancing actually no longer really has meaning as the dancers do not get near a lap.

Is it possible that the workers who declined support did so because they weren't victims and didn't need the support?

The English Collective of Prostitutes does in fact oppose attempts to criminalize prostitution. So do SCOT-PEP have you heard of them?

These groups are made up of prostitutes themselves. And noone knows about prostitution better than prostitutes themselves right?

prostitutescollective.net/
www.scot-pep.org.uk/

From the article you linked Fran:

"However, the internal analysis shows that supposed
victims variously absconded from police, went home
voluntarily, declined support, were removed by the UK
Borders Agency or were prosecuted for various offences"

Note the use of "supposed" victims. And the complete lack of understanding of why a trafficked woman might seek to hide from the authorities, or have to turn to crime to support herself.

For those reasons, I am highly sceptical of the report claiming to have interviewed 100 migrant prostitutes who apparently love their work.

I also note the journalist doesn't name the "prostitute groups" who are against anti-trafficking measures. Does he mean the English Collective of Prostitutes (who are nothing of the sort), or the brothel-owner and pimp, who claims he's a prostitute (he's not).

Don't you understand, when men defend the sex industry, they are justifying women being at their service as fuck-toys. They're never going to be prostitutes are they?

Of course women don't mind being prostitutes, they're only women and not fully human, like men are. All women want is some money and male attention, right?

From the article you linked Fran:

"However, the internal analysis shows that supposed
victims variously absconded from police, went home
voluntarily, declined support, were removed by the UK
Borders Agency or were prosecuted for various offences"

Note the use of "supposed" victims. And the complete lack of understanding of why a trafficked woman might seek to hide from the authorities, or have to turn to crime to support herself.

For those reasons, I am highly sceptical of the report claiming to have interviewed 100 migrant prostitutes who apparently love their work.

I also note the journalist doesn't name the "prostitute groups" who are against anti-trafficking measures. Does he mean the English Collective of Prostitutes (who are nothing of the sort), or the brothel-owner and pimp, who claims he's a prostitute (he's not).

Don't you understand, when men defend the sex industry, they are justifying women being at their service as fuck-toys. They're never going to be prostitutes are they?

Of course women don't mind being prostitutes, they're only women and not fully human, like men are. All women want is some money and male attention, right?

If you think anyone who is anti-prostitution is only concerned about trafficking, you are wrong.

Also, not impressed with one single study when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Finally, if both of you, as women, really feel that the sex industry's push for greater social acceptance and wider consumption isn't going to harm women as a group in society, then you've got a lot more reading to do. A vast amount more.

Just like to point out it is clear the statistics we have for trafficking are exaggerated and often just made up to scaremonger people into thinking the sex industry is more of a problem than it really is.

Every time statistics on trafficking figures are published, the newspaper that publishes them seems to add a few thousand on and then round the figures up to make it sound a little better.

I read another article somewhere that tells you how they collect the statistics on "trafficked women"- the researchers would phone up escort agencies and ask for the ethnicities of the ladies that worked there- and if they weren't British then they were automatically labelled "trafficked". (sort of a logic fail when you consider London and major cities are multi-cultured anyway- choose any random job and you will find people who aren't British working there).

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

I know this is about prostitution but it shows that what we tend to hear about trafficking is scaremongering and inflated or made-up statistics.

Laura Agustin (a sex worker herself) has some good articles on the topic.
www.lauraagustin.com/

Last time I checked under my skirt there wasn't a penis there, not has there ever been. I just find people who make claims based on figures that don't actually stack up quite funny.

Rosa's point about the dancer's seems flawed given that most of them are high intelligent ladies. I doubt that they have been brainwashed, but the proof is in the research. Leeds did a pretty through job and most of the so called feminist statements fall apart under review. Of course some people will just ignore the research and the figures as irrelevant.

As to how men treat women in the industry well considering the majority of dancers are highly satisfied with their work I am guessing it is not as bad as some people imagine. But that would mean the dancers and researchers are no doubt shitehawks as well.

"don't have the emotional make up to cope"

Cope with what? I thought stripping was all highly skilled dancing in beautiful surroundings?

You mean that having to sexually perform for a bunch of baying males isn't all sparkles and bliss?

I have heard the "sex work is fine except for those who aren't suited to it" bullshit argument before. It completely glosses over the fact that what makes sex work so horrific for many women is, not some personal weakness but the behaviour of the male "customers and how they treat the women in this industry. Anyone who uses that argument is a shitehawk of the highest order.

Two points:

1. I find it utterly repellent that men have the cheek to come on here to argue the women should remain the sex class.

1. There should be a bingo card of "Things Men say in FWR section of MN", one of the squares would have to be "My friend is a prostitute/lapdancer/etc and loves it and she's a really strong women..."

Rosebud - The point you made is excellent, and I have never heard one of the defenders of the sexual exploitation of women give a satisfactory answer to it.

Posie with reference to trafficking and the women hating the work I would point you again at the study by Dr Kate Hardy and Teela Saunders from Leeds (2009 study). It shows no evidence of trafficking in the industry and that the dancers have a very high job satisfaction ratio. There are going to be people who dance who shouldn't they don't have the emotional make up to cope and I feel for them but the study shows the vast majority of dancers enjoy their work.

The dancers average wage is about £48k a year in a job that offers a lot more flexible about hours worked, time off and working around other commitments (university). Obviously the more shifts dancers do the more money they will earn. This is all available from research that takes 5 minutes on the web to find.

Interesting that you are ignoring the figures, look up the presentation from Wiggle in the Portsmouth council minutes re the 95%. I am amazed that people making claims who find their information faulty wont comment on it and try to waffle. The figures in 3 areas show reductions in crime and the only commonality is the clubs. Information from the police in Newquay comes under the freedom of information act. The Islington data is based on the same data as Lilith only with proper analysis.

So I wonder how you will disprove the figures or will you just carry on ignoring them? They do show that claims about violence and rape being connected to clubs are a complete fallacy.

A drop in crime by 95%.....oh rubbish.

Still must be interesting being part of a debate in which you listen to absolutely nothing, I'm going to try that with people who frequent lap dancing bars from now on, it's what I do in real life.

Posie I noticed you didn't answer my question about Drummond when the figures release under Freedom of Information showed a down turn in rape and sexual assault since the introduction of lap dancing in Newquay.

It is also interesting to note that the revised figures for the Lilith report when analysed per 000's head of capita show a downturn in rape and Wandsworth which has no lap dancing is roughly the same size and population as Islington had an increase.

I also took time to research the most recent attempt at a nil policy in Portsmouth which had 96% of the respondents in favour of the clubs and a report on the newest club presented to the council showed a 95% drop in crime in the area since the club opened.

So 3 locations and 3 stories that don't reflect the claims made by object. Interesting in the reduction in sexual violence in areas where clubs are...

Ah so because our most talented women are also tricked, by society as a whole, that stripping is acceptable we should now alter our perception.

It's probably a long and complicated thing, too much to explain to someone with a starting point of it's not damaging and women choose it.

Thing is I object to hijabs and Burkas too, yet again the women also make the choice to wear it. But you always have to look at everyhting behind and before that choice, you have to look at women's place as a whole. You have to look at how women are perceived. It's only when you pick this all apart and find the cause that you can even begin to treat the symptoms.

More extreme examples of women allowing harm is FGM, mothers who have been mutilated themselves still take their daughters to be tortured, we can't then argue that because they choose it it must be okay. That's never a good enough argument and such a simplistic view.

Oh I don't know. He obviously doesn't go there for tits and cunts - it's their artistry he's after, same as all patrons of lap-dancing clubs.

"The skillful pole dancing, the great music, the stylish decor, the chilled out atmosphere just blew me away"
chortle
this one is priceless - can we have him framed?

So what about the Drummond claims Posie? He was your "fact" that wasn't as true as you would like.

As to the 14 y/o the club should be closed down no issues with that if the club didn't check her age they deserve to be closed. Which council was this? I did read a story about 5 years ago about similar in Blackpool except the girl had a forged identity including a driving license. I think the club was fined because they believed the girl was 18.

I thought all men objectified women anyway, night clubs are worse judging by what was written in this section previously. I am a little old now for men to objectify me but if we are talking about denying agency to a women then disregarding a dancer's view would be objectification.

As to the builder, its a builder what sort of stories do you expect him to come up with. Not sure it is much more than a cuationary tale of being sure you know howyour daughter earns her money.

I will thank you Posie I went off and did some digging and discovered the 2009 Leeds research which showed 87% of dancers had some form of higher education. Now it surprised me until I realised I was still wearing my judgy pants. Guess we all learn something.

"thanks for you support" awww were those nasty feminists really upsetting regarding watching really young women take their clothes off for money

So it's bullshit that clubs frequently force encourage their dancers to accept/allow touching?

Bullshit that a 14 yr old was stripping?

False that many women, when coming out the other side of sex work, feel ashamed and embarrassed and would encourage others not to enter the work in the first place?

It's bullshit that most men that frequent lap dancing clubs objectify women?

Yeah, whatever. The best story I've ever heard is a works party going along to a wanker gentlemen's club (oh the irony) and one colleague goes in for a private lesbian dance, comes out tells all how amazing these girls were, how one put her nipple in his mouth, how they 'really went for it". He encouraged the boss to go in, the boss did.... one of the girls was his daughter. Now this I believed to be true, not sure why my builder would make it up. AND HE (my builder not the father) STILL GOES EVERY CHRISTMAS would you believe. This story was told to me as a funny story, not a warning.

Actually I was thinking the truth about Newquay and what Drummond claimed versus the reality here

As to Object and their claims I noticed it is all anecdotal and the only report they have is Lilith which as Fran says has been proven to be based on flawed datasets.

I agree with you rosa.

DD - I'm expressing an opinion you don't like, about men who go to stripdance clubs. I am sorry it happens to be an opinion that reflects badly on you - but that's not me being 'aggressive' or 'unreasonable'. It's just my strongly-held opinion.

You come across as if you'd really just like me to be nicer about disagreeing with you ... or ideally, just to hold less strong views ... or, um, to agree with you?

No, sorry. I believe it's disgusting to take advantage of women in the sex industry, and I believe it is abusive.

There is no 'nice' way to tell you that, and it is incredibly arrogant to whine that I really should find one.

How's about you change how you act, then we can play nice?