Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

No worries. I just wondered if there was any data from the Office of National Statistics, for example, about wages.

Both the Guardian article from the OP and Indie one I linked to earlier are based on research from the University of Leeds described as "one of the most detailed studies of the lap- dancing trade ever conducted in Britain". So they're not just some journalist making it up. I'm not in a position right now to look into that research in more detail though.

Are there any published figures for how much women earn in Sexual Entertainment Venues, for various jobs, per hour, gross/net?

I mean actual empirical data. Not newspaper columns or guesstimates.

FastLoris thanks for clarifying those figures, i did think it seemed very low for a weeks earnings.
LDR Dragon now owes me an apology , i bet she won't though [hhmm]

in order to live in a structured society in which behaviour that leads to discrimination or detrimental treatment of individuals or groups of people is disouraged or outlawed

but that's exactly what you are doing by bashing lap dancing clubs. Your a phobic against voyeurs (customers) and exhibitionists (dancers). Remember its consenting adults and it's behind closed doors and 100% legal. So you can't compare it to the other things you have mentioned

We should not allow people to choose to paticipate in activites which encourage women to be seen as sexual servants of men as it has a wider significance for how women are considered and treated in general.

that's just another assumption like just most of your other arguments.

Also why do you keep making this a woman vs man argument?, when there are a lot of women who attend lap dancing clubs too. Last time i went there was a roughly 50/50 split of female and male customers in the club. All 3 of my local clubs are owned and run by women too and one of the clubs even features male dancers and drag acts.

As an aside, I find the so-called academic specialists "in sex work" who've never done any actual "sex work" in their lives, but spend their whole careers defending it and denying/minimising the harm it causes to women to be very creepy indeed.

rosabud

Get a grip love
I am sick and tired of strippers/sex workers/ prostitutes being used as scape goats for society's portrayal/treatment of women.
I wonder what your problem is with this group and why you would be so short sited to place the blame on this group of people.
You have no evidence that this is this case.
Should we ban everything just in case it offends someone somewhere?
How about sky diving, base jumping, all extreme sports? Ban 'em cos the participants have no regard for their own lives, so must have no regard for anyone elses right?

Fair enough. I suppose the bottom line is that we don't know, on the available evidence, why they cause crime to go down (I personally didn't even know that they did, and remain not entirely convinced. I rather suspect any effect either way is negligible). One very simple thought that occurs to me is that if they open in areas where there is not a lot of other nightlife, and stay open late, they increase the number of night hours when there are lights on and people around. But I admit that is just conjecture.

If they cause crime to go down because they are diverting the kind of behaviour that leads to sexual crime into a sanctioned environment then that is also bad because, obviously, that proves that the clubs are all about the kind of attitudes to women that are sexist, mysogynistic and dangerous.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the kind of behaviour that leads to sexual crime". Sexual crime itself is, by definition, a behaviour. Touching someone intimately without their permission is a crime; doing so with their permission isn't. I'm not sure if anyone has successfully defined what behaviour "leads to" the behaviour of the crime, as prior to committing it the criminal could have been doing just about anything.

If it's true, as has been claimed earlier, that most clubs do enforce the no-touching rule for fear of legal consequences if they don't, then the only kinds of behaviour or attitude being exercised in the clubs are looking, conversing and thinking. Now let's suppose for the sake of argument that those things are happening in the "worst" possible way according to feminist principles - that the men are completely "objectifying" the women and living out their most lurid misogynistic fantasies through them.

If we then find that actual sexual crime (eg assault, flashing etc) in the area has gone down, wouldn't that disprove the very idea that "objectifying" via looking, thinking and fantasizing automatically leads to such crime?

So basically: if they cause crime to go up, that proves they're bad. And if they cause crime to go down, that proves they're bad too?

No, that is not at all what I have said. I do find it frustrating when people cannot follow the course of an argument. Let me say it again:

No, if the clubs cause crime to go up they are bad (although from all the evidence it would appear that they do not cause crime to go up). If they cause crime to go down because they are diverting the kind of behaviour that leads to sexual crime into a sanctioned environment then that is also bad because, obviously, that proves that the clubs are all about the kind of attitudes to women that are sexist, mysogynistic and dangerous. If they cause crime to go down because of some other reason such as the great decor and skillful dancing then, hallelujah, we have discovered a really easy way to get crime to go down.

The "we shouldn't be controlling women's choices" argument is irrelevant as, in order to live in a structured society in which behaviour that leads to discrimination or detrimental treatment of individuals or groups of people is disouraged or outlawed, we prevent some choices all the time. For example, we do not allow bed and breakfast landladies to choose that gay people cannot stay in their guest houses, we do not allow paedophiles to choose to have sex with children, we do not allow people to choose to make racist comments, we do not allow parents to choose arranged marriages for their children, we do not allow naturists to choose to walk naked down the street and so on. Living in the complex society we do is about controlling the choices of many in order to make society bearable for all. We should not allow people to choose to paticipate in activites which encourage women to be seen as sexual servants of men as it has a wider significance for how women are considered and treated in general.

I didn't say there were not prostitutes in membership of Scot Pep, but can you provide evidence that none of its members profit financially from the prostitution of other people?

If a trade union has significant numbers of members who are at management level, this could compromise their credibility in claiming to speak for front line workers. By nature, there could be conflicts of interest between those who work on the "front line," and those who manage them.

Same here.

That's a very accusatory article but where's the evidence?

btw I personally know a woman who is a sex worker and a member of SCOT-PEP.

Just a cautionary note about "sex worker activist groups" not always being what they appear to be. This article is from the US, but I am aware that ECP and Scot-Pep aren't as "grass roots" (so to speak) as some would make out.

Even if a woman has a right to choose does a man have the right to pay for her and watch?

That's a decision made by the stripper and the man (and the club she works at), not anyone else who thinks they know better and have the right to tell other adults what they can and can't do.

Men who frequent such establishments are sad losers,

Shaming tactics aren't going to help your argument. On the other side of the coin people could say those who want to ban strip clubs are sad bitter prudists. But throwing insults around isn't the way to debate your point.

re Iceland- In Iceland strip clubs are illegal, which means lapdancing will be done underground out of sight of the police and completely unregulated. If a stripper is abused or assaulted there she will be unable to go to the police out of fear of being arrested herself. 100% of the profits will go to the traffickers and nothing will go to the government (and Iceland is already in serious financial trouble and still hasn't paid back the $2billion the UK lent them years ago).

Posie one dancer I know and a lot of research from Leeds University saying the same thing.

So lets take any performance from a woman... does the man have the right to pay and watch? There are plays that feature nudity, should they be banned for the same reason. There are some ballets that are performed nude, should they be banned? There are males strippers for gay men should they be banned? Any performer (and this will include dancers as some are members of Equity and are defined performers by their Union) has the right to be paid for their performance, if nudity is an issue then any performance that has any nudity should be banned under those guidelines.

The majority of censorship is driven by groups who want to exercise control, governments, religions and it seemsl feminism.

So as clubs seem to cause crime to go down they are wrong but they would be more wrong if they didn't? Sorry I am giggling just a little and I probably shouldn't.

@ rosabud,

I have not disputed the fact at all about the crime going down. My point is that this fact is actually further evidence that lapdancing clubs are not a good thing for the reasons I have already said above.

So basically: if they cause crime to go up, that proves they're bad. And if they cause crime to go down, that proves they're bad too? [hhmm]

One more thing.

Even if a woman has a right to choose does a man have the right to pay for her and watch?

And can you be serious about 'one dancer' for a valid argument? Really?

My apologies for an attempt at English...

Nope. We have one side that understands a society in which women are permitted to be objectified and complicit in their own objectification has a far reaching impact on the gender as a whole and thus creates an unequal and unfair place and another who doesn't mind exploitation, objectification and willfull corrosion of equality.

Nope. We have one side that understands a society in which women are objectified and complicit in their own objectification have a far reaching impact on the gender as a whole and another who doesn't mind exploitation, objectification and willfull corrosion of equality.

We have here two sides that will never agree, one side that wants to make decisions for all women based on their beliefs and from my side there are those of us that believe that an adult woman can make her own mind up and make her own choices. I have to respect the fact you have opinions even though they do not agree with my own as I am of the opinion every women has the right to choose.

If there was any proof that violence comes from these clubs I would be wanting them closed as well, but having spoken to a dancer and looked at all the figures I do not feel that what information is available gives me (or anyone else) the right to choose for those women who want to dance. Be it the better lifestyle, choice of hours or money that attracts them I have to believe that as an adult the dancers should be able to make their decisions. They are not objects for me to control.

So comes down to the fact that do you believe that you have the right because of your point of view to control other women's lives. Not something I would ever want to do.

Now I have to go split up DS1 and DS2 who are shouting over the football.

I am always so very saddened by those who seemingly need to justify young women taking off their clothes for the pleasure and profit of men.

I really don't think I can be arsed to debate it any further, the people justifying it here are not the sort, in real life, I'd give the time of day.

I have not disputed the fact at all about the crime going down. My point is that this fact is actually further evidence that lapdancing clubs are not a good thing for the reasons I have already said above.

Sausages, why do you think lapdancing clubs cause crime to go down? Is it because they are providing an outlet for men's sexual needs (in which case we have to accept that lapdancing clubs are most definitely about the objectifying of women and maintaining the idea that men have a need and a right to be sexually satisfied by women)? Or do you think that lapdancing clubs cause crime to go down because of the stylish decor and skillful dancing (quoted as an important reason for men to visit such places by some posters here)?

Incidentally, if you do happen to think that crime has gone down because of the skillful dancing and stylish decor then it would be interesting to do some more research and find out if crime has also gone down around Covent Garden where the Royal Ballet dance skillfully in the stylish decor of the Royal Opera House.

I don't know about you but £232 a shift seems better than shelves or bar work by a very long way. So in one night they earn a weeks money compared to the shelf stackers. The dancers enjoy their work (Leeds research shows this) so your reasoning is based purely on your personal beliefs.

Rosa, I am sure Leeds and Kent University are likely to research the causal effects. The fact is the figures are there. The fact that crime has gone down is exactly that, a fact. Rhetoric is not going to change the world and as the last consultation about clubs was done in Portsmouth and had 96% of people for the clubs you are going to be arguing for a long time.

Rosa's point about the dancer's seems flawed given that most of them are high intelligent ladies.

I didn't mke any points about the dancers. My point was that 1) arguing that lap dancing is a good thing because it's better paid than shelf stacking is flawed (for reasons already quoted above) and 2) arguing that lap dancing is a good thing because it is the choice of the indivduals involved is a flawed argument (for reasons already quoted above).

I would like to make a third point re the argument either for or against lapdancing dependent on whether or not it causes crime to go up or down. If it causes crime to go up then, clearly, that's bad. However, if all the quoted statistics are to be believed and it actually causes crime (specifically sexual crime) to go down then we ought to think about why that could be. Am I right in thinking that the suggestion from posters on this thread is that by having lapdancing/stripping in a "safe" regulated club, men who would otherwise be tempted to go and find a woman to commit a sexual crime against are therefore satisfied in a "safe" way thereby keeping the rest of society "safe" from these men's "natural" sexual urges? Do I really need to point out all that is wrong with such a suggestion and how it perfectly proves the point that lapdancing/ stripping is maintaining the idea that men have the right to be sexually satisfied by women and to consider women as there to serve their needs?

Of course, I could be completely wrong and the lowering of the crime rate could be to do with the fact that men are inspired by a couple of hours of sitting in the "stylish decor" of the clubs. That would have interesting ramefications for whichever government department is responsible for the interior decor of Her Majesty's prisons. Someone should write to them.